What to do when customers bring in CDR's

I deny them.

I've taken a lot of heat from other KJ's and singers on this policy over the years, but;

1. I can't determine if that CDR is a legitimate copy or not.
2. If I make exceptions for one person, I have to make exceptions for everyone.

I don't have a CD+g player. I don't even own one anymore. Problem solved.

When I did carry a player it was never a problem. Whatever it takes to make a customer happy. What do I care if customers burn karaoke cd's? The cd+g production industry shot itself not the end users.

I don't take customer burned copies either...

1. I don't know if it's a legit copy that they burned from a legal download

2. Quality control... I don't want some crappily done CDG with bad music or band graphics playing.... makes me look bad.

I've spent too much time ripping my CDGs to near perfection... and I pride myself on having the best quality CPS system for CDG and other music playback and if I play something that skips, jitters, or is over all bad in graphics or music this is a direct reflection on myself and my equipment.

The cd+g production industry shot itself not the end users.

I don't think you know enough about the production industry to say that. What they charged too much? Restricted themselved to CDG only? Toq's gonna give you a little education right now.

Karaoke costs a lot because the licensing is akin commercials or movie. It's called a Sync license. IE Sync video to audio.

When American companies began making karaoke, it only required the audio portion of the mechanical license. Having to pay Sync was a result of the Disney/Abko case and resulted in karaoke costing more to produce. With just audio, an artist and songwriter only get like $0.025 per copy of a song. Sync licenses allow them to negotiate whatever they want.

Some artists were cool about it and just charged the regular mechanical, plus a little extra.

Other artists went nuts and said "KARAOKE? PEOPLE SINGING MY SONGS? NO SIR, NOT WITHOUT GIVING ME MILLIONS!"

Still, other artists simply said "No karaoke at all".

What this did was create a black market in karaoke. Studios out of reach of US jurisdiction (china,korea) began producing karaoke tracks without the artists sync permission.

Ya, I hate the people that run the company but... Let's say you're sound choice. What do you tell your customers when you're trying to do everything by the book, stay legal, pay off artists for sync fee's and some foriegn company is dumping karaoke into your market without doing things by the book?

This all started around 2000 or so.

Also around the same time, CDG capable CDR's came on the market, and PC technology.

Now I can't blame tech for the current piracy woes, basically tech is neutral (like guns) and it's up to the individual what they do with it. One of the reason i'm pissed at Sound Choice is thier constant stance that PC karaoke is illegal. Certainly the way they went about fighting the problem wasn't the best choice, but I cannot simply put all the blame on them.

The lack of respect for American copyright is the problem here. It's gone beyond just being a problem for CDG manu, it's a problem for the KJ as well since now we have tons of little KJ's running around with lappies and pirated karaoke.

Let's compound the problem for Manu's and KJ's even further by remembering there is much more demand for original music than there is karaoke. We are a niche market. The total revenue generated from straight DJ's and sales of non karaoke music dwarf that of KJ's and karaoke music. The manu's could make more money just selling original tunes, just like we could probably make more money being straight DJ's.

Conclusion?
KJ's and Manu's love karaoke, cause most of us certainly aren't in it for the money.

The manu's problem is my problem now. Now maybe that I've explained what the situation is you'll make it your problem too.

Back to the original post...

I don't play CDRs. VDJ can do it but I choose not to for the same reasons Rob stated.

When somebody hands me a CDR I ask them to go look the song up in the book and, when you have over 70,000 titles (including duplicates and vocal tracks), chances are their selection will be there. If I don't have it, oh well, but I will make note of it and may get it.

Back to the original post...

I don't play CDRs. VDJ can do it but I choose not to for the same reasons Rob stated.

When somebody hands me a CDR I ask them to go look the song up in the book and, when you have over 70,000 titles (including duplicates and vocal tracks), chances are their selection will be there. If I don't have it, oh well, but I will make note of it and may get it.


I agree, I may only have a mere 5000+ tracks but there is a good enough base that most will find something to sing. If there happens to be an internet connection I have no problem purchaseing a song or two... for a fee of course.

But, yeah what we play has a huge reflection on us as a DJ/KJ, play junk and your no better than anyother DJ/KJ... play high quality tracks and you'll reciever much more respect and a larger following then pleasing the one guy with his CDR that one time while compromising your reputation for a quality show.

when you have over 70,000 titles (including duplicates and vocal tracks),

Karaoke Satan was in Karaoke Hell chat, chatting with karaoke demons minions about your 70,000 song collection.

Even at best, it takes 15 minutes per CDG to rip. About 18 songs per CDG Giving you a grand total of over 3888 CDG's.

At 15min per rip, times 3888 CDG's, if you didn't sleep and ripped CDG's 24hours a day, 7 days a week it would take you 6 years to rip your collection.

Just Satans observation.

Unless you happen to have more than one computer working on it and the help of partners. As long as there is one copy per each copy on a drive then everything is OK.

My partners had music I didn't have and I had music that they didn't. We each went out and bought the CDGs that were missing from each other's collection and then copied the files.

When new music is purchased, multiple copies are purchased but only one rip is done. Why spend all that time riping if you don't have to?

The same is done with other music and videos.

I would play it after listening for quality.

Thank you Jeff!!

Is there an echo in here john? :P

I want to see what 3000+CDG's looks like. I'm going to show mine tomorrow afternoon around 3-4ish PST. Lemme put my video up first so you have a format to follow GKDJ.

Alright, I am going to back up and take the unpopular position in this debate, and back up my opinion with rationale.

First, we must understand why we are standing onstage...it is not to promote the industry, or be the karaoke police, it is to put asses in the bar seats and serve the people connected to those asses as best as we can to build a following that spends, and returns weekly to keep spending to ensure our livelihood. That is our first and foremost mission.

Second, you are free to exercise any policy for any reason you want, and I will not be the one to tell you that you are wrong or right...BUT, when the disgruntled singer leaves a show that will not play his or her disc, or CDR, they will come to my show and I will do it happily. My reasoning is thus...first, customer service. No matter what format my show is in, I will always be able to accomodate a customers disc. My reasoning is further justified by the growing number of PC based jocks refusing to do it, and the growing number of singers I have who have their own discs. Plenty of jocks here are running illegal hard drives with 90k songs and singers still complain about them not having a song, or the wrong brand. It is about the singers and their needs...that is why we exist.

Many of these discs are CDR. While I share the opinion with you all that it sucks that other hosts are supplying the singers with bootlegs, it is not my responsibility to police the origins of where the customers disc came from...whether it is an archive disc, compilation, legally internet downloaded, pirated or whatever. It is not my responsibility, nor do I have any apparant liability if I am caught doing it.

They day I hear about a KJ prosecuted for the use of a customers disc is the day I will change my tune. As long as I am keeping my nose clean, not supplying, not trading on the net and using all legal source material that I provide to the show, I feel I am not part of the problem. I dont think banning CDR at my show is going to stop the problem, on that level...it will merely send the singers to another show, which defeats my primary objective for being there in the first place.

The 10 or 20 bucks that singer will drop is just as green to the bar as any other persons... If you feel that strongly about the principle, more power to you, but I think fighting the problem at the stage level is not productive and a tad quixotic.

Harryoke: While I agree with you on some points as far as customer service is concerned... I still can't get past the possiblity of playing a junk CDR and being seen as just another KJ with a crappy sound system.

I'll say this you are right if a singer doesn't get to sing their song they will probably go cry in their beer... so sorry but, I'm not subjecting my reputation to a crappy disk... if they have the manu's disc fine I'll play it. At least if it is a manu's disc I have a little more confidence that it will be a good disc and not skip, jitter or even possible break in my drive.... I've had the last happen and had to send the entire player in for service and that was a manu's disc of mine... fortunately both were under warrenty at the time.

I just wont do it for all the reason's I've posted. Not because I'm taking an anti-piracy stand. I'm taking this stand for my reputation as a KJ/DJ and the qualtiy of my sound. Having a reputation for a great sound and a great presentation is uber important to me. That's why when I discovered Power CDG Burner I took the time to re-rip my collection for the 5th time... yes, I am a bit anal about quality, but that's just me.

I am in complete agreement with Harry. If I happen to have the same disc, I will use mine, just for quality control. If I don't, I might suggest a "version upgrade" to the singer. In many cases they will give it a shot. However, in the end, the customer is always right. If they want to use their version, then that's the one I'll load.

The fact is, I have so many patrons who carry their own versions, that it would seriously hurt business to turn them away, though many of my regulars trust me enough to leave their discs at home.

I've told so many of my regulars about the ability to buy mp3+g songs & burn them over to CDG, most of them are starting to do that. They know that if they bring a burned CDG to my show, they bring a copy of the invoice/receipt with them, too.

Does "song quality" reflect on my show? Yes and no. Yes, I buy karaoke songs that I consider to be the best quality of the available version (whether others agree it is the best or not). But if I don't have the song version that a singer wants to sing (radio edit vs. album version, whatever), it might as well have been performed by a 2-year-old. On an out-of-tune pipe organ. Recorded on an old 8-track cassette. Oh, and the track changes in the middle of the song... you can hear dogs barking in the background... and Mom calls for supper.... (Sorry, my whacked sense of humor is getting in the way, but you get my meaning.)

If a singer has a version they're used to & they're willing to bring it in (original CDG or burned mp3+g with proof-of-purchase), I'll play it for them. Non-regulars, I'll do a burned CDG... ONCE. After that, no p-o-p, no play. They can find another song or use my version... with dogs barking in the background.... :D

A serious question...for those KJs who WILL play a CDR with proof of purchase: Allow me to play devils advocate, if for no other reason than my own recreation...

Repeating, read carefully...this question is ONLY directed to those who said they would play a CDR based on its legal acquisition. This is not a quality control issue.

Why? Why, if you are willing to play CDR if they have POP, do you do that? What are you hoping to accomplish with this policy? Is it an effort to stop the "problem"? Is it in support of the industry...or are you just plain old afraid of getting busted if you get caught because you feel it is illegal to play them as a KJ?

Just want to know what each of your impetus' are for this particular policy implementation.

Is it in support of the industry...or are you just plain old afraid of getting busted if you get caught because you feel it is illegal to play them as a KJ?


For me it's neither harry,

I talk to the karaoke producers every year at NAMM. Probably my best friend in the industry is Chris Cofoni of MMoGroup (music minus one, pocket songs).

Chris is about the same age as me (little younger) He's Sicilian (like me) and just an all around fun guy to hang out with. He has a baby girl, same age as mine, and when you get down to dollars and cents, everyone in his company is making under a 6 figure salary.

I probably could have given a rats ass before I made friends with some of the producers, but now that I have seen that these companies are made of hardworking people like you and me, I cannot with a clean concious allow people to steal from my friends.

Beyond that, we're in tech saavy silicon valley here. There was a time I allowed folks to bring in CDR and stuff on USB drives, but week after week i'd see the same people bringing in junk I knew they downloaded off the net.

Should I go into how I knew they were pirating for the sake of argument so we can avoid a rebuttal? Yah, why not.

We had this indian kid coming around for a while. Name escapes me now. He'd always bring his songs in on a USB flash drive.

Now pirates do pirating for one reason and one reason alone. They want to be famous. They want all these folks on the internet to suck up to them, tell them how wonderful they are for "sharing" and basically kiss thier balls.

Sometimes pirates like to put little txt files in thier archives to let the world know where the file came from. INFOZ.txt, stuff like that.

Autokdj had a bug (fixed) where if one of these txt files was present in the zip archive, it would crash winamp.

So whenever i'd cue up this guys songs, we'd crash. I'd restart (thank god for our crash recovery) I'd dig around the temp directory, see that junk in there and be like "WTF?"

There was other singers pulling crap like that too. People openly talking to me about "HEY TOQER I FOUND THIS COOL NEW PLACE TO DOWNLOAD KARAOKE SONGS FOR FREE! ALL YOU GOTTA DO IS SUCK A DING AND YOU CAN TAKE KARAOKE UP THE WAZOO ALL DAY ITS SO COOL OMGBBQ IM COMING!! KARAOKE ALL OVER MY HARD DRIVE!!!!!!"

AS someone who's actively trying to push karaoke technology, I think it's a bad situation that karaoke companies hate the idea of evolving karaoke because of people pulling that crap.

There's days I feel like pulling down the autokdj website. Keeping it exclusive to the 7b, and maybe jokerswild. Why the eff should I have to pay $10@mo for hosting, and another $35 for a domain trying to make technology for karaoke when people like the ones I described 2-3 paragraphs up are making me look bad?

Beyond that, the entire industry will not survive if we keep allowing pirating to continue. We'll see more karaoke companies go under, less song selection, and no new songs. We'll be left with maybe one or two karaoke producers who will have a monopoly because there will be no other producers left. Monopoly is only good as a board game.

I hate to say this, but we're going to get pwned... CDG will die because it's a non-drm format, and producers will start moving towards DRM based formats. When that happens, you won't have a choice in hardware or software.

With DRM they could even dictate what mics you have to use.

Sorry for being rantish...

I guess summarizing everything I said above, I see a direct corrolation between my taking a CDR, and the industry going in a direction that is bad for me and my friends.

I don't require a p-o-p so much to cover myself or my business from liability (though I'll admit it's a small part of it, too). I want to make sure that new stuff people want to sing keeps getting produced. If people don't vote for new karaoke songs with their money, why should they get any? It isn't like manufacturers & producers can ask for free song licenses just because no one else is willing to pay for the finished product.

I won't get tied up in economics or philosophy about ethics or legality here - I've done that in other threads. But in order for me to look in the mirror, I have to feel that I run my business ethically and legally. If I demand to get paid for my services, I think I should pay others who make my services possible (karaoke producers/manufacturers) and earn the money I demand (that's another thread. :))

There's days I feel like pulling down the autokdj website. Keeping it exclusive to the 7b, and maybe jokerswild. Why the eff should I have to pay $10@mo for hosting, and another $35 for a domain trying to make technology for karaoke when people like the ones I described 2-3 paragraphs up are making me look bad?


I hope so 'cause it's the best darned karaoke plug-in bar none.... in the world!!!!!!

A serious question...for those KJs who WILL play a CDR with proof of purchase: Allow me to play devils advocate, if for no other reason than my own recreation...

Repeating, read carefully...this question is ONLY directed to those who said they would play a CDR based on its legal acquisition. This is not a quality control issue.

Why? Why, if you are willing to play CDR if they have POP, do you do that? What are you hoping to accomplish with this policy? Is it an effort to stop the "problem"? Is it in support of the industry...or are you just plain old afraid of getting busted if you get caught because you feel it is illegal to play them as a KJ?

Just want to know what each of your impetus' are for this particular policy implementation.

Since you are legally allowed to make a burned backup of a disc, there is no legality question. There is absolutely no way to tell if a disc is a backup or burned by a friend. Playing a burned disc is not illegal, so if the customer wants to use a version I don't own ( and I don't delete dupes- all versions are in the book), I'll load it- AFTER I test it using a device that I carry for the purpose. If it's a mfr. original, no test, and no question....

I went to Karaoke Sat night. The KJ would have gladly accepted my burned compliation cd if he did not have the version on his computer.

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

I find it nice cause thay actually print books with 85,000 songs in them and you can pick any version you want.

I went to Karaoke Sat night. The KJ would have gladly accepted my burned compliation cd if he did not have the version on his computer.

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

I find it nice cause thay actually print books with 85,000 songs in them and you can pick any version you want.

You've got to be kidding you don't have a problem with this pirate... he has stolen 11 x 85,000 songs from the manu's by the very fact that they have only one set copied to 12 systems... they only have ONE legit system and 11 pirated systems.

I'm sorry but even if I didn't turn this pirate in I certainly wouldn't be impressed nor would I EVER patronize a venue where I know they are using his company to host karaoke.

It's companies like this that are why the RIAA and KAPA were developed and also why the cost of music is still high... if you steal from a department store and this theft becomes more and more prevelant merchants have no choice but to raise prices to compensate for their losses... karaoke manus have done much the same thing, while prices haven't consistantly gone up over the years, they haven't gotten any cheaper either, even though the cost of manufatureing them has.

The very fact that a KJ takes CDR's shows a lack of resposibility and is in my mind un-professional. There is no way a KJ can tell if the CDR came from a legit copy or was downloaded from limewire... Of course we can't be the karaoke police but we do need to up hold the integrity of our companies reputation and just say "no".

Even though my collection isn't anywhere near 85,000 tracks I'm still comfortable telling a punter, no. Even at the possible cost of that singer leaving... I find most of these singers are water drinkers anyway.

The other night I had some lady named Nancy bring in a CDR. I told her no, but maybe we can *BUY* it from tricerasoft.

I loaded up the tricerasoft website, found her song (same version she had), told her it would cost $1.49 and I would get it for her cause she's so nice. She dropped a $5 in my tipjar.

Net profit: $3.51, for doing the right thing.

Cam, you need rethink things. You really shouldn't support that guy.

The other night I had some lady named Nancy bring in a CDR. I told her no, but maybe we can *BUY* it from tricerasoft.

I loaded up the tricerasoft website, found her song (same version she had), told her it would cost $1.49 and I would get it for her cause she's so nice. She dropped a $5 in my tipjar.

Net profit: $3.51, for doing the right thing.

Cam, you need rethink things. You really shouldn't support that guy.

I go out 1 or 2 times a year. He is not huring my bottom line he is 25 miles away from the closest place I work. I will admit he is a whesil. It doesn't bother me, we have fun when we go there.

People get what is coming to them, they always do. I do find it impressive that he atleast has 1 copy as every othe KJ in the area except a few just download everything.

... He is not huring my bottom line he is 25 miles away from the closest place I work..... I do find it impressive that he atleast has 1 copy as every othe KJ in the area except a few just download everything.

Cam, all due respect, I took issue with a couple of the above quoted statements...

Firstly, 25 miles IS your market. I drive 45-50 miles one way to work. I pass a lot of bars between home and my target job. Suppose I make 12 copies of my discs and put my family and close friends to work for me at those bars...and suppose, since I have no overhead, that I do it for half price. How impressed would you be with me then?

We have a core group of KJs in the area all sharing the same 90,000 songs or so...I can easily name 7 KJs operating off of them...and people come to my show and wonder why I dont have as many songs...even if they bought an original for each, having THAT many kjs operating off of the one source disc is wrong on too many levels...not fair to the competition, not fair to the manufacturers, AND BLATANTLY illegal, and a very easy, provable prosecution...either for a manu, or for a competitor to claim unfair business practice.

They may not be hurting your bottom line where you can see it obviously, but they are taking jobs, and singers away from legit operators who may not feel the same as you. They may also be bringing down the median rate of pay, precluding you from raises.

Heh there was this one time at band camp :P

No but really, there was this one time....

A girl walks up to my booth. "OH a professional burned this for me!" she says while handing me a CDR.

"Which professional?" I asked with a puzzled look.

"KJ (name/venue omitted)"

This paticular KJ is less than a mile from me. His is the only other full time karaoke venue in SJ, and they have other draws to the venue besides karaoke.

Just another reason not to take them.

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

I find it nice cause thay actually print books with 85,000 songs in them and you can pick any version you want.

The problem here is that unlike a burned backup or ripped MP3 for one site use, what these people are doing ( multi-site use from a single license) IS completely illegal. That is not a artist group issue alone. Copywrite infringement is a no-no. If they get caught it's more than fines, it's jail time.

.......The very fact that a KJ takes CDR's shows a lack of resposibility and is in my mind un-professional. There is no way a KJ can tell if the CDR came from a legit copy or was downloaded from limewire .....




....and you've stated the reason I disagree with the statement above.. Do you truly believe that just because you bought your disc at your buddy's retail store or a "reputable" online source that YOUR discs must all be legit? Do you have any idea how many pirated versions of SC, SGB, Dangerous, Chartbuster and other mfrs. are out there? Labeled the same, sound the same, look the same. The only difference is the code on the spindle hole, which can also be duplicated. MP3s are even more impossible to be sure of.

In other words, we can't be any more sure of our own collections, despite precautions, than what is handed to us by the singers. I can virtually guarantee that if you have more than a couple of hundred discs ( or that many worth of MP3 tracks) that you own some pirated music, whether you are aware of it or not.

As a matter of fact, if you bought Dangerous, SGB, or KJ Tools in the last few years, they are almost CERTAINLY pirated, no matter how they are packed and labeled, or where you got them. The same goes for the downloads.

So who am I to stop a customer from giving me a burned copy that's for his/her personal use, as opposed to that KJ that Cam described? It's legal (on disc), ethical, and keeps the singer happy ( our job), thus making it professional too.

BTW- unless you have SEEN the license agreement, you can't be sure of ANY downloads.

Sound Choice is considered a reputable company, yet they ran into licensing problems even though they have been around a long time. They just never got caught until recently. The same may be said for any downloading source....

They are a multi-op with 12 or more systems that buys 1 copy of all the music and puts it on all their computers. Hey it's better than some people.

Cam, here is another thought...I would rather have one pirate in my area with 85,000 illegal songs than to have a multi op sharing one library of 10,000 legally purchased songs! My logic is, one guy stealing 90,000 songs and setting up shop costs the manufacturer of course, but only affects one venue, and one pool of singers.

In essence, the multi op is a bigger threat because he is stealing the same songs multiple times, and operating in more venues, taking from the pool of available singers which makes it hard for a legit operator to keep an audience. The multi op thief is a MUCH bigger harm to the industry than a single op pirate, even if they did purchase the initial library!!

.... Do you truly believe that just because you bought your disc at your buddy's retail store or a "reputable" online source that YOUR discs must all be legit?

Joe,

One of the 4 qualifiers a jury/judge has to examine in a copyright infringement case is intent.

If someone to to the best of thier knowledge tries to do the right thing but they've been decieved, they won't be criminally liable.

Now this doesn't apply to things like recieving stolen property, but even there, you have to show intent to make the charges stick.

Now I haven't checked out every online site out there, but i've checked both the credentials and called the manu's being sold on tricerasoft and CAVS. All manu's sold through either site tell me CAVS / Tricerasoft has their blessings to resell thier karaoke.

Also, i've asked these manu's if they're fully licensed. They've said yes.

Now before this boils down into "Why would you bother calling them toqer?"

http://shup.com/Shup/16267/107113121160-Winamp-Library.png
We built a winamp ML interface to the tricerasoft store. I contacted these manu's because I was hoping I could get better commissions than what tricerasoft gives us, but so far none of them want to deal with us directly, they just want us to work through tricerasoft :(

Maybe now yall can understand some of the reasons I don't take CDR's. Yah, mostly a personal, pride, do the right thing attitude. Also seeing folks act like "Oh piracy, it's not a big deal" irks me too.

I think if *ANY* of you were in my market, doing things the right way the best you could, and you suddenly saw a wave of karaoke piracy flourish, you'd be pretty irked off too.

Would you be as irked off as me to the point of completely dennouncing piracy, as well as not giving anyone an avenue to pirate?

If you take homeburn CDR's, you take that risk. I'm not talking about the CDR burns you order from Sound Choice, i'm talking about stuff you *KNOW* was burned at home. Raise your hand if you have ESP and you can tell if someone with a CDR has pirated or not. None of us do, none of us can tell, so why even take that *risk* of giving piracy an avenue into your venue?

If you feel like I do, tell everyone why you won't take CDR's. If someone tells you "I don't pirate" just tell them if you make an exception for them, everyone is going to expect an exception. If they cry, hand them a tissue.

Joe,

1) One of the 4 qualifiers a jury/judge has to examine in a copyright infringement case is intent.

2) Also, i've asked these manu's if they're fully licensed. They've said yes.

(


1) Agreed, no argument. Unlike Cam's example, when I play a customers disc I have no intent to defraud, copy, or profit from the use of that disc.


2) .....and you expected them to tell you NO? Sound Choice, as an example, has produced and distributed a truckload of discs that were not properly kicensed, many of which have been pulled from the market. If you own any SC tracks, chances are some are unlicensed. SGB? From what I understand, NONE are licensed properly. Zoom? May not be licensed in the U.S. - same for DK.....all "reputable" manufacturers.

Toq, I understand the legal situation. What I meant by bringing up the unlicesed music in virtually ALL hosts collections is that there is no difference between using our discs and using the customers' in terms of ethics or professionalism. I own all of the sets mentioned above, and purchased them from reputable dealers. As far as I knew at the time of purchase, they were legal licensed discs. At that time SC hadn't been hit with there problems, nor had the others, Now that I've discovered the problems will I throw thousands of dollars worth of music out? Would you? Of course not. I bought them under the impression of legality and with no malicious intent. If my singers hand me a disc, I assume they did the same, because they, like us, have absolutely no way of knowing otherwise.

Bottom line: There is absolutely nothing wrong with loading a customer's disc, and I will continue to do so.


Toq, I am as virulently anti-pirate as you are, believe me. However, we have no right to assume that singers' ethics are any lower than ours.

Toq, I understand the legal situation. What I meant by bringing up the unlicesed music in virtually ALL hosts collections is that there is no difference between using our discs and using the customers' in terms of ethics or professionalism. I own all of the sets mentioned above, and purchased them from reputable dealers. As far as I knew at the time of purchase, they were legal licensed discs. At that time SC hadn't been hit with there problems, nor had the others, Now that I've discovered the problems will I throw thousands of dollars worth of music out? Would you? Of course not. I bought them under the impression of legality and with no malicious intent. If my singers hand me a disc, I assume they did the same, because they, like us, have absolutely no way of knowing otherwise.

Bottom line: There is absolutely nothing wrong with loading a customer's disc, and I will continue to do so.

Joe: I'd agree with you totally on this statement if you were talking about the customer presenting a factory labled CDG disc from a known manufacturer... not a CDR with some handwritten lable on it....

Joe: I'd agree with you totally on this statement if you were talking about the customer presenting a factory labled CDG disc from a known manufacturer... not a CDR with some handwritten lable on it....


Well, I have backed up my entire collection. The labels on the backups are white with black printing. They look nothing like the Mfrs. labels, and they are clearly labeled "Back-up Disc.) When I first started backing up my discs I had no label program and hand labeled them. Keep in mind that backing up a disc is completely legal.

I give my singers the benefit of the doubt, up to a point. I test all obviously home burned discs on a device that I carry for this purpose. If I ever find a problem during testing, or if the quality of the disc is so bad that I KNOW it's a pirate, I no longer accept ANY discs from that singer.

One thing about "factory labeled" discs- they may not be. I have seen some really bad label dupes. Since there is absolutely no reason to dupe a factory label for a back-up, I will also assume piracy and skip that disc too.

Other than that: They want 'em, I load 'em.

Well, I have backed up my entire collection. The labels on the backups are white with black printing. They look nothing like the Mfrs. labels, and they are clearly labeled "Back-up Disc.) When I first started backing up my discs I had no label program and hand labeled them. Keep in mind that backing up a disc is completely legal.

I give my singers the benefit of the doubt, up to a point. I test all obviously home burned discs on a device that I carry for this purpose. If I ever find a problem during testing, or if the quality of the disc is so bad that I KNOW it's a pirate, I no longer accept ANY discs from that singer.

One thing about "factory labeled" discs- they may not be. I have seen some really bad label dupes. Since there is absolutely no reason to dupe a factory label for a back-up, I will also assume piracy and skip that disc too.

Other than that: They want 'em, I load 'em.

That sounds like a reasonable way to do it... tell me what is this device you use to test the CDR's with.... and how does it work. I'm guessing you have what would be considered a toy cdg player with you or is it something more complex?

That sounds like a reasonable way to do it... tell me what is this device you use to test the CDR's with.... and how does it work. I'm guessing you have what would be considered a toy cdg player with you or is it something more complex?



Much easier to use, but tough to design ( remember my EE background). I took my older QuicDisc duplicator apart. It already comes with scan and test firmware incorporated. I added space ( the old nachine reads fine but can no longer burn), and putting in a breadboard with connections to an EPROM loaded with an updateable anti-virus program, and incorporated it into the test sequence. Then I stuck it in a smaller case ( I no longer needed the receiving, or burning drive). It scans the disc for errors ( too many on a clean looking disc means poor quality recording), does a physical test on the disc for quality, and checks for viruses in case it's an MP3 disc. It also checks ( built in software from Microboards) and notes explicit lyric codes.

Nifty device, but a pain to build. If I need another, I'll wait until it comes out by another mfr....:sqfrown::sqcool:

It's a one button test that takes under 2 minutes. As long as I have the disc in advance it's no problem.

Much easier to use, but tough to design ( remember my EE background). I took my older QuicDisc duplicator apart. It already comes with scan and test firmware incorporated. I added space ( the old nachine reads fine but can no longer burn), and putting in a breadboard with connections to an EPROM loaded with an updateable anti-virus program, and incorporated it into the test sequence. Then I stuck it in a smaller case ( I no longer needed the receiving, or burning drive). It scans the disc for errors ( too many on a clean looking disc means poor quality recording), does a physical test on the disc for quality, and checks for viruses in case it's an MP3 disc. It also checks ( built in software from Microboards) and notes explicit lyric codes.

Nifty device, but a pain to build. If I need another, I'll wait until it comes out by another mfr....:sqfrown::sqcool:

It's a one button test that takes under 2 minutes. As long as I have the disc in advance it's no problem.

Well I must admit comming from a Luddite... :sqwink: that's pretty impressive....

dont underestimate luddite skills.

Well I must admit comming from a Luddite... :sqwink: that's pretty impressive....

You gotta remember, tyhe reason I'm a Luddite is, through my engineeering skills, I truly Know the limits of technology, as I am on the cutting edge...

Well I must admit comming from a Luddite... :sqwink: that's pretty impressive....

You gotta remember, the reason I'm a Luddite is, through my engineeering skills, I truly know the limits of technology, as I am on the cutting edge...

we don't do much karaoke any more...and i don't bring cdg players when i do, but if i did and a customer asked me if they could provide me a disc to play...i would play it. I would not ask for a receipt.

If the customer gave me a reason to believe they were getting them illegally, I would tell them i couldn't play it, but i am not going to assume any wrong doing until i have reason to.

As stated earlier, If working at a bar, my primary goal is to keep the bar's customers happy, drinking there, and having a good time for as long as possible, not to be the karaoke police.

How do we know if any of them are driving a stolen car? or got in with an fake I.D? We don't, and it's not our job to worry about it. If they came up to me and told me they got in with a fake ID or that they stole a car, I would be inclined to notify someone, but i'm not going to go looking for it.