Leaving PCs/CDG Players Aside, Hardware For Sound...

...In other words, describe the vocalists' part of what you do:


Wireless or wired mics? Brands?


Speaker brands, wattage, size and placement? Different setups for different size or type of show ( sound-wise).


Types of effects, and are they available for the vocalist as well as the track? ( for instance, I can key change the vocalist to bring them in with the track- without telling them of course This keeps me from having to stop and keychange the track for them. They know that they sound better, but don't know why :sqwink:).

Knowing your regulars, do use different mics for different singers, or depend on vocal mix alone? ( For instance, my best singers use a Shure Beta ( great mic, but very unforgiving), General use: Shure SM-58 Screamers: Shure PG-58 Drunks: "Old Ironsides" - Pyle UHF
Believe it or not, with all the Shures I have, MY mic is a Gemini UF-8264. I just like the way it works with MY voice.


Do you carry your own sound or are you using house systems ( If so, what are THEY using)?

Do you use subs for karaoke?

In other words, I'm not asking about how the music is produced (player/PC), or the picture on the monitor, or the pretty lights. I'm asking about the core of the show.

Ok Joe, I'll play....

All wired, (2) SM 58s & (1) 55SH (all Shure's) for my singers, my wireless 58 Beta for me just died.

EV SxA250s, yall can look the specs. Use the same speakers for everything no matter how big or small the show. If I really need more speakers for a large show, I can get from another DJ some JBL Eon G2s to go with my EV's.

Effects, I just use what's on my mixer, Mackie CFX12, mostly the cathedral setting.

Different mics for different singers?..... no, they use the above mics. I wish the ones who are too soft DON'T use the 55SH. Gonna add a compressor / limiter to the system, been getting alot of screamers in lately.

Always like to use my own sound system. Only once I have used a house sound system, I kept bringing in my own till I upgraded theirs to something tollerable to work with.

Subs, my Mackie 1501 lives at the bar that I do 2 nights a week and does not come out traveling. It's a real big PITA to bring out everywhere else.


:sqbiggrin:

I just started putting together a basic system:

Behringer UB2222FX-Pro mixer
Audio Technicia ATR30, Samson Q6 & Nady SP5 wired mics
Then I have two AT 200 Series VHF wireless mics that stay on my DJ mixer.

Still have a long way to go - which is why I'm excited to see more of this thread.

While we're at it - can someone explain how they use monitors.. and how to set things up on the Behringer boards? I'm having a hard time figuring out the sub out stuff.

Total sound for standard karoke setup.

Shure 58 Wireless - 2
AKG WMS400 with D880 mic - 2

I only use one of each unless doing a very large karaoke only show.

My Mic Sennheiser e835

Mixer Yamaha mg 16/4

Effects - Alesis Midiverb 4

Outboard:

BBE 882 Sonice Max
DBX 223 Crossover.

Amp Tops: PLX1804
Turbosound TXD 121

Sub Amp: PLX 2502
Turbosound TXD 118 or 218 depending on night of week.

For the bars that are very smokey I use a different set of amps that are less expensive. I use a Mackie FR2500 for the tops and a QSC RMX 2450 fot the sub.

I have a Lexicon Effects unit I dont currently have in the rack and a Set of Turbosound 115 which are 15" mains instead of 12" along with a complete JBL system I'm not using. Depending on rooms I use different setups for karaoke, but the bars I'm at now I basicly use the same setup every night.

I just started putting together a basic system:

Behringer UB2222FX-Pro mixer
Audio Technicia ATR30, Samson Q6 & Nady SP5 wired mics
Then I have two AT 200 Series VHF wireless mics that stay on my DJ mixer.

Still have a long way to go - which is why I'm excited to see more of this thread.

While we're at it - can someone explain how they use monitors.. and how to set things up on the Behringer boards? I'm having a hard time figuring out the sub out stuff.


Hi pete. I've heard a lot about those Samson mics recently, but haven't tried them yet. How do you like them?

Total sound for standard karoke setup.

Shure 58 Wireless - 2
AKG WMS400 with D880 mic - 2

I only use one of each unless doing a very large karaoke only show.

My Mic Sennheiser e835

Mixer Yamaha mg 16/4

Effects - Alesis Midiverb 4

Outboard:

BBE 882 Sonice Max
DBX 223 Crossover.

Amp Tops: PLX1804
Turbosound TXD 121

Sub Amp: PLX 2502
Turbosound TXD 118 or 218 depending on night of week.

For the bars that are very smokey I use a different set of amps that are less expensive. I use a Mackie FR2500 for the tops and a QSC RMX 2450 fot the sub.

I have a Lexicon Effects unit I dont currently have in the rack and a Set of Turbosound 115 which are 15" mains instead of 12" along with a complete JBL system I'm not using. Depending on rooms I use different setups for karaoke, but the bars I'm at now I basicly use the same setup every night.

A couple of quick questions for you Cam:

First, I'd like to know how you (and everyone else) like to lay out your speakers.


Second: You use a Senn as your mic. Do you sing well? ( I'm not being a wiseguy. I'm the first to say that I need a more forgiving mic), and have you had any trouble with the low end on it?


To Lito: You are talking to a devoted EV fan here. I have modified 2-way to 3-way, for my use. However, I went to a small venue where they used EV 12" ( model# not on the top of my head) and they sounded awesome for their size.

Where the heck is Carolyn???!! :sqconfused:

Hi pete. I've heard a lot about those Samson mics recently, but haven't tried them yet. How do you like them?

For Karaoke and MC type work behind the console - the Samson Q6 is fine. It's the bottom end of Samson's professional line - but since Best Buy is liquidating them on ebay - they can be had for $10. I actually got the Q6 for $4, and the ATR 30 for 99 cents!

Nothing I'd worry about handing over to a drunken crooner.

Those Sennheiser mics are extremely sensitive. Good for a great singer, not good for me. Those things are very clear and they let everything through and they let everyone hear every vocal flaw, they should be used for very good professional singers only IMO.

I have some wired, inexpensive Behringer mics that I like a lot. They come in a three pack in a foam padded plastic carry case. They sound good and I haven't had any problems with them. I prefer wireless, but I can see some uses for inexpensive wired mics.

My next mic will be the ~$100 entry level wireless Audio Technica 252. I've used them quite a bit and have had good results. They're sensitive, but not too sensitive and have a good solid feel to them. They're decent mics for the money.

My one bar I have no space my speakers are about 10ft apart. The sub to my left side against a wall. It's hard to explain acoustics but I generlly can be most optimatly setup.
All 3 of my bars I am in the corner of the room and speakers are 45 degress .

The other 2 bars I have about 15 or moore feet between speakers.

The Sennheiser is my 3rd mic I only use it when 2 people are singing and I need a 3rd mic. I used to have 4 wireless in my rack I just found out it was overkill, and if you had 4 the group wanted 4 so now in bars I only use two no matter how many people are singing. I also only have a 6ft cord on my mic so no one can ask to use it. I had a G2 system It sounded great I used to use it as my main mic until it was broken. I ordered parts not to long ago I just have to find the time to fix it.

My one bar I have no space my speakers are about 10ft apart. The sub to my left side against a wall. It's hard to explain acoustics but I generlly can be most optimatly setup.
All 3 of my bars I am in the corner of the room and speakers are 45 degress .

The other 2 bars I have about 15 or more feet between speakers.

The Sennheiser is my 3rd mic I only use it when 2 people are singing and I need a 3rd mic. I used to have 4 wireless in my rack I just found out it was overkill, and if you had 4 the group wanted 4 so now in bars I only use two no matter how many people are singing. I also only have a 6ft cord on my mic so no one can ask to use it. I had a G2 system It sounded great I used to use it as my main mic until it was broken. I ordered parts not to long ago I just have to find the time to fix it.

My setup:

2 wireless AT202 Freeway mics (main mics used for singers and myself)
2 wired Nady SP5 mics (extras for multiple singers)

Sorry Joe but I have to include my PC as part of my core system because it truely IS at the core of my system:

Custum built PC with EMU-1820m w/Patchmix for mixing and effects (too many available to list but the primary ones I use are 4-band EQ, Mono Reverb, Delay, C/L, and occationally some flange and chorusing)

Outboard:
Nady XA-900 Amp
Behringer DEQ-2496 Ultracurve (sets my room eq and feedback supression)
Furman power conditioner
TV is a 20" LCD on a stand
2 Yamaha 15" full range speakers BR-15 (ya ya I know these are entry level but I gotta tell ya they rock)

First, I'd like to know how you (and everyone else) like to lay out your speakers.
Well due to the size and shape of the room I have to work with, none of my speakers are on stands.

About a year ago the owners, (the bar I do 2 nights) decided to get one of those boxing / punching bag machines and my sound is a little different. You have to understand that this is a really small bar, max seating of 175. Since my sub and speaker on a pole that normally wound go there, I had to adjust, my sub & 1 speaker stacked on top of my sub goes underneath the punching bag on the machine. I can't get the speaker over the heads of people because of this setup.

The second speaker is on the floor behind the singer and acts like a monitor. I don't have that much feed back problems until they point the mic towards the floor.

To Lito: You are talking to a devoted EV fan here. I have modified 2-way to 3-way, for my use. However, I went to a small venue where they used EV 12" ( model# not on the top of my head) and they sounded awesome for their size.
I have these speakers for 6 years now, and I just love them.


:sqbiggrin:

You have to understand that this is a really small bar, max seating of 175. :sqbiggrin:

175 thats big! The bar I work wed and Sun has seating for 92 and we break the fire code every night. Some nights head count is 120+

Tuesday no idea how many seats but fire code is 149

Thursday and Friday we have 60 seats don't know fire code.

175 seating is small? Dude, you don't know what small is. If that place seats 175 then it's around 3000-4000 square feet. around here that's big.

Those Sennheiser mics are extremely sensitive. Good for a great singer, not good for me. Those things are very clear and they let everything through and they let everyone hear every vocal flaw, they should be used for very good professional singers only IMO.

I have some wired, inexpensive Behringer mics that I like a lot. They come in a three pack in a foam padded plastic carry case. They sound good and I haven't had any problems with them. I prefer wireless, but I can see some uses for inexpensive wired mics.

My next mic will be the ~$100 entry level wireless Audio Technica 252. I've used them quite a bit and have had good results. They're sensitive, but not too sensitive and have a good solid feel to them. They're decent mics for the money.

I actually carry both wired and wireless of versions of my mics ( with the exception of the drunk "Old Ironsides" mic). Great to have less expensive but same version mic back-ups.

My one bar I have no space my speakers are about 10ft apart. The sub to my left side against a wall. It's hard to explain acoustics but I generlly can be most optimatly setup.
All 3 of my bars I am in the corner of the room and speakers are 45 degress .

The other 2 bars I have about 15 or moore feet between speakers.



In regard to the smaller bar, two questions:


1) have you tried a diagonal setup? I find that in smaller venues this adds fuller sound for both the singer and the crowd, without being overwhelming ( By this I mean, say, left rear corner vs. right corner behind you). If you normally use a monitor, this will also relieve you of the need.
That's if, of course, you have the room.


2) Do you ever find that subs in a small venue sometimes seem to overwhelm the vocal mid-range, despite best mixing?

My setup:

2 wireless AT202 Freeway mics (main mics used for singers and myself)
2 wired Nady SP5 mics (extras for multiple singers)

Sorry Joe but I have to include my PC as part of my core system because it truely IS at the core of my system:

Custum built PC with EMU-1820m w/Patchmix for mixing and effects (too many available to list but the primary ones I use are 4-band EQ, Mono Reverb, Delay, C/L, and occationally some flange and chorusing)

Outboard:
Nady XA-900 Amp
Behringer DEQ-2496 Ultracurve (sets my room eq and feedback supression)
Furman power conditioner
TV is a 20" LCD on a stand
2 Yamaha 15" full range speakers BR-15 (ya ya I know these are entry level but I gotta tell ya they rock)

Ok, a couple of questions for you:

1) however they are produced, are you able to do the same effects for vocals as tracks ( keychange a mic, for instance) and vice-versa?

2) Why those particular choices for mics? Sound?. Cost? Durability?


3) Speaker positioning. High or low? diagonal, cross, front, stack, or other?

Ok, a couple of questions for you:

1) however they are produced, are you able to do the same effects for vocals as tracks ( keychange a mic, for instance) and vice-versa?

2) Why those particular choices for mics? Sound?. Cost? Durability?


3) Speaker positioning. High or low? diagonal, cross, front, stack, or other?

1. Yes... I can do this a few ways.... thru an effect in patchmixes setting or using Pacemaker a winamp plug in... this affects the song not the vocals... if I want to pitch change the vocals I can add a vocal morphing effect... I can make ya sound like Mickey Mouse or Mr Roboto if I like.

2. At the time when I purchased the first wireless mics it was price but also that I had heard good things about the AT product... second they have two output choices, XLR and 1/4" Line Level... I've found that these mics actually sound best and produce the least feedback when the 1/4" outs are used vs. the XLR both are balanced outputs but the 1/4" is a little less hot. The only con I have with these mics is range... I will be upgrading shortly but have other fish to fry so-to-speak.

And as far as the durability question... does dropping a 50lbs amp rack on the head of one of the mics and it survies with a slight crushing of the grill count for durability....?

The Wired mics were a buy 5 for less than $40.00 and they do sound good... they are Nady SP5's I wouldn't say they are as good as say a Shure but for the price they sound great.. I had a couple of Behringer 8500's that I didn't like mostly because they sounded muddy... the SP5's are bright and have a good midrange presence...

3. After reading the topic I had started about speaker placement...

I will still be setting them up at least 5'6" which is to say when they are up I can stand under them.... I'm of average height so that gets it above their heads enough...

As for spaceing If at all possible I'd like to have them between 10-15' apart and forward of the singers stage area... with a 45 degree out angle.

I have a Valentine dance Feb. 16th so that will be the first I try the new speaker configuration... and it will be in a banquet room that holds 150 ppl I will be oriented pointing my sound thru the lenght of the room... I've done this venue before so I know it's accoustics... last time I was there I was running the 2 yammies and 2 10" Soundtechs.... I don't have those anymore but I really don't think I need them anyway... I can rock the house with the two yammies alone.:sqbiggrin:

6 3" PM5 monitors on the cieling, pointed at a 45' angle towards the floor.
1 ps12 subwoofer, behind the singers.

Emu1820 like JW, EXCEPT I mute everything on patchmix and route it all through reaper via ASIO. My PC is relatively fast enough to run most VST based effects in near realtime. The keychanger in reaper is way better too.

Where the heck is Carolyn???!! :sqconfused:

Sorry, Joe.

I use a few different mics for the bar shows. We have three sets of cordless mics. Audiostream cordless we use those for ourselves or people that sing well. Hysonics are our middle of the road most of our singers use those. Then the generic tridents, those are for you are drunk and you need to go home microphones. We also have a corded mic it's an old pioneer, some people just like the corded one. We seem to have quite a few people that like to sing as a group so the extra mics are nice.

Also use a digetech vocal processor, we like to add effects to the vocals to make them sound more full, just an opinion.

We have a couple different sets of speakers depending on the size of the room. One set that we use at bar shows says Audiostream on them, but those blew a long time ago. I rewired and replaced the tweeders and horns in both speakers with Peavey, 320 watts, 15 inch horns. For smaller venues (50 or less) we have a set of Yamahas 10 inch horns not sure about the wattage at the moment, we have daisy chained them for larger venues as well.

We also use a 15 channel Behringer mixer and Behringer mixing power amp.

We have used subs in the past, just doesn't work for us, have ran monitors in the past also but always had problems with the singers and feed back, they just didn't want to stay away from the monitor.

Speaker placement depends on the venue. Normally to the front of the system, so the singer is behind them. The venues that we work in generally have more then one monitor for the words so singers tend to walk around the room to sing.

6 3" PM5 monitors on the cieling, pointed at a 45' angle towards the floor.
1 ps12 subwoofer, behind the singers.

Emu1820 like JW, EXCEPT I mute everything on patchmix and route it all through reaper via ASIO. My PC is relatively fast enough to run most VST based effects in near realtime. The keychanger in reaper is way better too.


I have a competitor who's speaker configuration is ceiling mounted, except 1 sub on the ground. NICE sound.

Could you clarify on the type of speakers? 3" PM5s?

1).... We also have a corded mic it's an old pioneer, some people just like the corded one. ...
2)...... I rewired and replaced the tweeders and horns in both speakers with Peavey, 320 watts, 15 inch horns. For smaller venues (50 or less) we have a set of Yamahas 10 inch horns not sure about the wattage at the moment, we have daisy chained them for larger venues as well.



3...We have used subs in the past, just doesn't work for us, have ran monitors in the past also but always had problems with the singers and feed back, they just didn't want to stay away from the monitor.

3...Speaker placement depends on the venue. Normally to the front of the system, so the singer is behind them. The venues that we work in generally have more then one monitor for the words so singers tend to walk around the room to sing.


1) As great as wireless are, wired mics have direct sound transmission. Also, I believe all should carry at least 1 or 2 wired mics for the same reason that you should have at least one direct wired phone in your house- backup.


2) Proving how important technical knowledge is to our business. I used to sell components to Peavey both in NJ and Mississippi. They are better than many think.


3) I don't use subs either- same reason. However, with your speakers set up in FRONT of the singers, how do those who don't wander deal with no stage monitor ( I don't use stage monitors - also for the same reason, but my speaker set up is different)?

175 seating is small? Dude, you don't know what small is. If that place seats 175 then it's around 3000-4000 square feet. around here that's big.
Ok, my bad, I'll rephrase, the sign over the door: max OCCUPANCY of 175, not seating.

The size of the bar is 2 small units plus an outside deck in a small strip center, when it rains the deck is just about useless. Most bars down here occupy 2-3 medium sized units. Take into consideration: full kitchen with walk-in freezer, separate storage area for kegs & cases of beer, a small office, pool tables & dart boards, etc… the space gets filled up real fast.

:sqbiggrin:

Now when you speak of a mic like your reference to the Sennheiser E835 you are just referring to the hand held apparatus itself. To make this operational you have to purchase the receiving unit correct?

Or was this a reference to a wired mic vs. wireless mic?

I'm interested because I do work with Professional singers 4-5 times a year, and if this Mic would add to their performance, then great; but if I have to buy a new receiving unit, then we are talking a lot of money.

Now when you speak of a mic like your reference to the Sennheiser E835 you are just referring to the hand held apparatus itself. To make this operational you have to purchase the receiving unit correct?

Or was this a reference to a wired mic vs. wireless mic?

I'm interested because I do work with Professional singers 4-5 times a year, and if this Mic would add to their performance, then great; but if I have to buy a new receiving unit, then we are talking a lot of money.


I don't know who this question is for, but I will say that for top professional
vocalists, this is a very hard mic to top. Second choice for this use would be the Shure Beta 58A. Both have beautiful clear sound and full range, and both are available in either wired or UHF wireless. The first and second ratings are the general opinion. My personal choice would reverse the order- but that's just me......

1) As great as wireless are, wired mics have direct sound transmission. Also, I believe all should carry at least 1 or 2 wired mics for the same reason that you should have at least one direct wired phone in your house- backup.


2) Proving how important technical knowledge is to our business. I used to sell components to Peavey both in NJ and Mississippi. They are better than many think.


3) I don't use subs either- same reason. However, with your speakers set up in FRONT of the singers, how do those who don't wander deal with no stage monitor ( I don't use stage monitors - also for the same reason, but my speaker set up is different)?


1. Yes, I agree it is important to have it as a back up also.

2. Absolutely, took a basic electric class in High school in shop, comes in very handy. I handle all of our repairs, try to anyway doesn't always work out. Although quite a few would disagree with me, I'm a Peavey fan. Love the highs and lows, they are work horses you can't kill them, Have worked with Peavey equipment since becoming involved with music, just my experience with them.

3. The placing of speakers that I mentioned was confusing sorry about that, the diagram (please excuse the roughness) may better explain. One speaker is forward and to the right of the singer, the other is left and a little forward but pointed in the singers direction. Make sense? In the diagram the speaker to the left of the singer is almost parallel to the singer, usually with that distance and placement sound has worked for me and the singer can hear themselves without feedback.

This is the PM5 Joe,
http://www.zzounds.com/item--EMUPM5

Sound is OK, but the one downside I have is my sub is stuffed behind the tv, behind the singer, on the stage. I get low freq feedback.

This is the PM5 Joe,
http://www.zzounds.com/item--EMUPM5

Sound is OK, but the one downside I have is my sub is stuffed behind the tv, behind the singer, on the stage. I get low freq feedback.


OK, so two questions:


I thought you had a raised stage ( If not, just skip this). If so, can you fit the sub on the floor in front
of the stage? That may solve the feedback problem.


I think I'm confused about the speakers. At 40w RMS per, and evenly dividing six, that's 120w per channel max? Did I miss something? Help.....

OK, so two questions:


I thought you had a raised stage ( If not, just skip this). If so, can you fit the sub on the floor in front
of the stage? That may solve the feedback problem.


I think I'm confused about the speakers. At 40w RMS per, and evenly dividing six, that's 120w per channel max? Did I miss something? Help.....

He has a raised stage but the problem with putting that type of unit out front is well... let me put it this way... does liquids and electronic devices mix well?

Oh and those are bi-amped 40/40 watts... so that'd be approx... 240 watts per side.... and for the size of that bar it's more than enough power.... and since they are equally distributed thru out the bar no ones blasted by sound and it fills the space nicely....

He has a raised stage but the problem with putting that type of unit out front is well... let me put it this way... does liquids and electronic devices mix well?

Oh and those are bi-amped 40/40 watts... so that'd be approx... 240 watts per side.... and for the size of that bar it's more than enough power.... and since they are equally distributed thru out the bar no ones blasted by sound and it fills the space nicely....

1) OK, no useable space in front of the stage :sqwink:


2) Guess I read with my eyes closed again. Didn't see bi-amped. Plus with a spread speaker distribution on the ceiling I'm betting that works pretty darn well!