Kind of a milestone for autokdj

So today I went down to the club before the other KJ got there to toy with things a bit.

"RING RING"

Payphone was ringing. I picked it up, "HELLO? WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED?" said the girl on the other line. I gave her cross streets, and she said she was bringing 15 people with her.

I wasn't getting paid to be there, just some intellectual curiosity that needed satisfying. I've known for a while with the proper settings, autokdj is perfectly capable of running things itself.

http://shup.com/Shup/20817/10803023929-Media-Library-WWW-Plugin-Ver-0.60-Configuration.png

I made sure that was checked on. I added a compressors to the PC Wave balance as well as the mic to keep the levels sane, and added a touch of verb to the mic.

"Toshi, I set it to automatic, just let the customers cue up thier own songs on the kiosks."

"Hai Bobbysan"

With that, I hopped in the car and drove home. I eagerly tuned into the stream.

No joke, there was some girls on stage singing, and people lined up behind the kiosks entering in songs. This went on for about an hour until tonights KJ arrived.

She uses CD's, no PC, so the automation was over.

My personal feeling is this would work with any rotations less than 8 singers. After 8 singers, you do need a babysit*#% err KJ to make sure the mic goes around the room fairly.

Now that that boss has seen it too, i'm going to talk to him about opening up the karaoke at 2pm, instead of 9pm, and letting me keep at least a percentage of the take. I'm sure he'll be for it too.

You mean to tell me that there is finally a job out there that can be put on autopilot and still get paid for it.... yeah us!:rofl:

You know, the more I think about it...

We're not just talking about a short amount of time during the day karaoke is not active.. We're talking a good 7 hours, that could be completely booked up and ready to roll.

Average 6 hour night I can sling about 75 songs if there's no holdups. I doubt we'd do more than 10-15 during the day, but still, an extra $15 X 5 days would be hot for me. I don't even have to be there...

I like how you used the term "autopilot". We get quite a few 747 pilots from SJC coming through from time to time and they've told me how the new planes can take off/land all by themselves. They still have jobs, and I don't think automation threatens ours for the very same reasons.

Yes but when are tha gonna program the "Doing The Dishes" part of it.... I'm tired of bustin suds....


No really I think it's pretty cool and really just a few steps from being like one of those digital juke boxes.... where a singer could put their money in pick a song, grab a mic and sing their hearts out.... but you're right there will still and I think always will be a need for a KJ to babysit and direct the punters.

..... just a few steps from being like one of those digital juke boxes.... but you're right there will still and I think always will be a need for a KJ to babysit....


Gee, that's great, Toq! Hell, ya won't need a Karaoke Host, or even a KJ- Just let the guy who sweeps up watch the mic! BTW- Do you think he should make the same pay as a Karaoke Host? Just curious....


Karaoke jukeboxes were tried and failed in my neck of the woods. They like more personal interaction here. However, your venue is much different, and it seems to have worked there....Best of luck to ya, want you to be happy, but I hope for your sake and your associate KJ that it doesn't catch on.....

Is somebody there changing the wind screens on the mics? Is somebody there sanitizing them for the next singer?

When the bar gets shut down for a long time because sickness was spreading through the mics, how much money will you be making then?

awwww geez the paranoia is pathetic here..... do you really think karaoke can be done entirely without a KJ? come on now.... sure a lot of things can be automated and heck even controled via internet connection... that's what toqer was doing....

oh and this cleaning the mic screen thing.... I've Never seen any KJ do that. I mean really any germs that might exist on the mic die in seconds outside the body... even the flu virus... wouldn't survive to the next singer. sheesh.

"do you really think karaoke can be done entirely without a KJ?"

Absolutely!

I have no doubts that there will eventually be Karaoke jukeboxes. Who knows, they may already have them in Japan. Will there still be a use and a need for a talented human host who entertains the crowd as part of the show? I think there will be for a long time to come in certain venues. A Karaoke jukebox makes a lot of sense for certain types of places. In Japan Karaoke is way more popular than it is here. I think it will become much more popular in the US over time than it is now.

Think about slot machines. They generate a large portion of revenues and profits for casinos. The don't need to take breaks, they don't get time off for vacations, they don't call in sick and they don't get paid an hourly wage. A Karaoke jukebox machine is the same thing and if people get used to it then all they do is put their money in and sing what they want. Buttons on the machine keep track of the rotation and call the next singer. Buy ten songs, sing ten songs in a row or however the Jukebox rotation software is set up. Go into a bar, put your money into a regular music Jukebox and it will play as many songs as you have money. Do you think the bar likes that?

As technology advances there is no reason why both DJs and Karaoke hosts can't be replaced. Entirely? No. Some people and some places will always want the human element, but Ipods and PCs are replacing CD decks, why can't a machine replace a Karaoke host or a DJ? Don't think it's possible? You're fooling yourself. . .

in Japan the Snack bars as they call them (picture corner pub holding no more than 45 Japanese people, with Americans less) the bartenders take the requests and insert the discs. This post is dated as I have not frequented one of these snacks in 15+yrs.

Without quoting, i'll address Oz and John on the situation in .jp

They're pretty standardized on thier systems, I believe there's only one company over there that already produces a juke, and it's distributed all throughout the pacific rim.

My buddy moved to the philipines a year ago, and one of the autokdj programmers has been over there plenty of times. Here's the description I got from them.

There are karaoke rooms with regular CDG's and KJ's, but even more prevelent is one paticular companies juke. It's found in almost every corner spot.

The system is pretty old, it was designed around dialup internet. The songs are midi, and streamed in realtime over the dialup.

The machines also score, and say things like "You're a rockstar!" or "You're doing great!" in an electronic voice. You can pretty much walk down any large metropolitin city in the pacific rim, and hear these machines screaming these slogans out.

Excellent. Toqer. You said you wont make it to Vegas? If not I have some thoughts which might blow you away.. Hope to phone after Vegas If I dont see you there.

oh and this cleaning the mic screen thing.... I've Never seen any KJ do that. I mean really any germs that might exist on the mic die in seconds outside the body... even the flu virus... wouldn't survive to the next singer. sheesh.

Rob:

Go back to this thread (http://www.ourdjtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10202&highlight=windscreen).

Excellent. Toqer. You said you wont make it to Vegas? If not I have some thoughts which might blow you away.. Hope to phone after Vegas If I dont see you there.

I wish I could Jon. I'm not exactly poor, but my debts kind of force me to not have an income if you know what I mean. Paying off the NAMM trip has me totally paralyzed for the next few months, then there's all the money spent in years past to get my movement going that has to be paid off.

Good news is I think I've made a ton of progress with this years NAMM trip. Time to switch gears here.

To the folks freaking out about automation:

There's a reason why there's only 1 karaoke juke manu in the pacific rim, and it's a strong parrellel to what's going to happen here in the states.

The piracy problem happened there first. People were selling bootleg cassettes, VHS tapes, and VCD/CDG in Asia long before the internet really exploded in the .com days.

Before in Asia, there were companies that produced karaoke reproductions, much like Sound Choice, MMoGroup, and Priddis. These companies were DKK, Pioneer, and a host of other companies.

The karaoke reproduction companies had the same problems in Asia as they do here, they couldn't control piracy.

So the Asian music labels finally decided to quit sublicensing songs to karaoke reproducers. Labels decided to keep the entire marketing chain to themselves, and put out thier own "On Demand" karaoke system.

Dialup and Midi, blech!

The way they control what was left of the CDG market was to release CDG tracks on the original artists CD's. My friend across the street from my club runs a Anime shop, and he's constantly buying CD's from Japanese pop artists. The Japanese pop artists release CDG on thier CD singles, everytime.

The other way they regained control over thier market was to charge exorborant licensing fee's for live karaoke music, akin to our own ASCAP/BMI/SESAC, only so expensive that gaining the right to play CDG in your club in Japan costs upwards of $15,000 @ year, nearly 10x what our ASCAP/BMI/SESAC fee's are.

They did a lot of lobbying to get the laws on the books changed.

So club owners were left with 2 choices...

A. Pay $15k@ year licensing to use your old system AND you had to maintain your collection.

B. Use thier crappy, midi, dialup system for $1500@year but have access to every song plus monthly updates.

Guess what won out?

Now lucky for us, here in the USA we're not at that point yet. The karaoke companies are still struggling to stay afloat, but who's to say an American Label is going to produce karaoke? Chances are, they won't. Most american artists despise karaoke, and thier labels are the same way.


If the good, honest KJ's don't start embracing the tech now, show the karaoke companies that we aren't going to screw them over, and help them get to a place where they're not gonna get screwed over by anyone, they're going to die.

Then the labels are going to have karaoke outlawed in the USA.

In Asia, karaoke is a total cultural thing. No karaoke in Asia would be like no Superbowl in the USA. You send a lobbyist to congress saying "Superbowl" they know exactly what you're talking about. You send a lobbyist to congress saying "Karaoke" and they probably won't even bother pretending to care.

I think I have a right to build a system anyway I choose. I think you have that right too. I don't want the American labels to price karaoke licensing out of my reach. I don't want them telling me "This is what you have to use and like it"

Hell no.

I don't know why I wrote this long ass thing. What the hell? I can't believe I just rambled on this way.

I'm gonna play some counterstrike and smoke a fattie, fook this.

Toqer:

I am not freaking out about automation, just bringing something up that you may not have thought of. Automation, to a certain point, soes require human intervention.

How do you handle the microphones this way? How do you keep the A-holes that want to play from picking up the mic and being a complete azz?

Even when you have somebody there it can be hard to keep people from being complete idiots when they get a mic in their hands.

Do I like the fact that some day a machine could replace me as a Karaoke host? Hell no, but whether I like or don't like something isn't going to change what is happening with new technology. Machines have replaced lots of jobs and will continue to do so where it makes sense economically. The machines will continue to be refined and improved over time. This has happened and is continuing to happen in every industry.

You just said it yourself. People will behave or misbehave whether someone is there or not. You will still have bartenders and waitresses watching what is going on. Who knows, maybe they will be replaced with machines too? You might end up with an automated bar with only one person there tending the machines. Put your money into the machine and out comes a nice frosty cold beer. Then eventually the business will install a robot to replace the person who tends the dispensing machines.

Eventually we will all just be a brain in a glass jar telepathically communicating to the machines that do all the work. We won't even need bodies anymore, we'll be pure intelligence.

Rob:

Go back to this thread (http://www.ourdjtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10202&highlight=windscreen).

Yes I remember that topic but I've never seen anyone ever clean their mics....

I just really don't think there's a need to.... since that topic and have changed my viewpoint.

Is somebody there changing the wind screens on the mics? Is somebody there sanitizing them for the next singer?

When the bar gets shut down for a long time because sickness was spreading through the mics, how much money will you be making then?


Between all shows, and during flu season, a sanitizing spray between singers. On top of that, my mics rest in a UV dock when not in use. NO ONE gets sick from MY mics.

awwww geez the paranoia is pathetic here..... do you really think karaoke can be done entirely without a KJ? come on now.... sure a lot of things can be automated and heck even controled via internet connection... that's what toqer was doing....

oh and this cleaning the mic screen thing.... I've Never seen any KJ do that. I mean really any germs that might exist on the mic die in seconds outside the body... even the flu virus... wouldn't survive to the next singer. sheesh.


Hate to break it to you, but the Asian karaoke bars in my area use karaoke jukeboxes. They are made by Cavs, stand about 5 feet high, wth 2 mics attached. Been around about 5 years. These are small private bars, and no one knows they exist ( no external signs- almost like speakeasys) unless invited. My Sensei has invited me to several of these. Except for very few exceptions- NO HOST. The singer puts the money in, picks the song, sets their own vocal effects from a menu. Assembly line karaoke. I personally think it's boring, and the sound bites.

However, Toqer works off the house system, and apparently the sound is good there.


So, NO HOST karaoke does exist, at least in Asian bars, but that wasn't even my point. Our value is based on the venues perception of our work, not it's reality. If you are perceived (whether true or not) to be doing less, then you will be perceived to be worth less. Maybe instead of losing you, you just get PAID LESS. In the beginning the venue may be excited by his accomplishment, but eventually that will fade.

This isn't "Luddite", this is business. These jukeboxes came out here a few years ago and had many worried. Luckily, they couldn't provide what I, and other good hosts could, and they failed miserably- at least in American-style bars.

I have no personal fear of what Toq is doing- it just won't affect me. My worry is for Toqer. These things HAVE been succesful in Asian karaoke bars, with no good result for the KJ. I know Toq has a good relationship with the owners, but nothing lasts forever. Also, how about the other host there. He said she's a bit older. Maybe this is HER only source of income, and maybe SHE gets the boot, and maybe due to her age has trouble getting other work? Not a feelgood.

And what about burnout? Maybe the singers that come during the day no longer come at night, and you end up vampiring off of yourself, merely THINNING your crowd.

AND maybe everything I pointed out WON"T happen- but you won't know until ya get hurt.

The main point here is that in business, ( any way you make your living) one should always think about all possible consequences before even considering implementation...

Joe: You know that musicians made the very same or simular argument that you have... and it is well said I might add.... but here's where the paranoia kicks in... like musicians they worried that the jukebox was going to make hireing a live band at bars obsolete.... this has not happened yet as far as I know bars are still hireing bands for weekend entertainment... maybe not as much as they use to but they are still hireing them.

Just because karaoke can be done more efficiently and in some cases no host required doesn't mean that KJ are going by the way side in lieu of a karaoke jukebox...

This is where the KJ needs to shift gears I think... if your job is in jeopardy over a jukebox you're doing something wrong... and if you can't fix it... then maybe it's time to hang up your mic as it were....

... or, you could just take the bull by the horns learn what it takes to get into the karaoke jukebox rental and setup business and start making money off of rentals to the bars... there is a company called Diltz Entertainment in my area that does just that with regular jukeboxes and video bar games... they are making a killing!

Fact is there will always be a market for bands just like there will always be a market for KJs and DJs... it might be slimmer and definately more technical knowledge will be required but it will still be there.

It is sad when someone who is older loses a job because they can't or wont keep up with technology but that's life... like it or not.

Satan has a vision...

OK I think the whole point I was trying to get across earlier is autokdj's strategy is different. Way different than CAVS, way different than that one company in Asia.

I personally don't think it's much of a future if we let the karaoke companies hand our asses to us, and lock us into one paticular form of hardware.

You love karaoke so much Joe, what I offer is the ability to serve out so much karaoke it'll be like you're in 20 places at once.

You'll have sites that are hot and will demand your personal appearance and attention, you'll have sites that are slow like you mentioned, and can probably do without your presence.

Even if you're only getting paid the equiv of $5@hr at your slow sites, it's still an extra $60 @ day for you. I like $1800@mo.

Beyond the business sense it makes, you gotta understand Joe, me and my crew are a pretty philanthropic. There are so many ways we could have designed this system to screw with KJ's. We could have charged money, we could have made it non customizable, we could have locked people into hardware, but instead we let folks build it, how they want it.

I'm gonna jump on you a minute Joe, cause you're so damn sexy.

If good guys like you don't start embracing this Joe, we're going to end up like Asia in a few years. Locked to an on demand system, with no customibility, or advanced features like rotation management.

One of the MMOgroup execs told me he thinks karaoke future is going to be without a hard drive or CDG's, because he's seen Sound Choice on demand on comcast. Can you comprehend what a blow that will be to mobile guys like you? You will be required to have a cable connection at every venue, or pay exhorborant licensing fee's for the right to use your CDG setup.

Joe sometimes I think you're so blinded by the CDG vs PC argument you fail to see what i'm trying to do here. It's really got nothing to do with that argument at all. I see you as a brother KJ, but damn dude, you gotta get off that kick. I fookin love you man.

The world can survive without KJs if it has to. If many of them eventually get replaced sometime in the future by machines then KJs will do something else. That is the way of the world. I doubt it will be within the next 5 years, but possibly not much more than that.

Bars may change too. The crackdown on drinking and driving isn't going to be reduced it's going to get more and more restrictive. Sales of alcohol in bars and restaurants will get more and more restricted. Will people go out to bars to drink Perrier or Coca Cola? A few will, but a lot won't. There is also a movement to prevent people from smoking tobacco products. Eventually you won't be able to smoke anywhere except in your own home, PERIOD.

If you think you are irreplaceable you are soooooo wrong. Everyone can be replaced. Some people have this illusion that they are so talented and so valuable that they are indispensable. Then one day for whatever reason they learn the truth and it's ugly. These people suffer agony because they lied to themselves and won't accept their own eventual "mortality". Even the greatest entertainers go through times in their careers where they cool off. Some regain momentum, some fade away into obscurity. Don't be smug and think you can't be replaced by another KJ or by a machine . . .

I'm coming into a lot of CDG's soon. I was going to sell the duplicates off, but this is making me think in a new direction.

I might just setup another system down the street, with a bill validator on it. The original CDG's will stay onsite with the system.

I'm coming into a lot of CDG's soon. I was going to sell the duplicates off, but this is making me think in a new direction.

I might just setup another system down the street, with a bill validator on it. The original CDG's will stay onsite with the system.

Dude PM me about the dupes... I may take some off your hands.

1) Joe: You know that musicians made the very same or simular argument that you have... and it is well said I might add.... but here's where the paranoia kicks in... like musicians they worried that the jukebox was going to make hireing a live band at bars obsolete.... this has not happened yet as far as I know bars are still hireing bands for weekend entertainment... maybe not as much as they use to but they are still hireing them.

2) This is where the KJ needs to shift gears I think... if your job is in jeopardy over a jukebox you're doing something wrong... and if you can't fix it... then maybe it's time to hang up your mic as it were....



3) It is sad when someone who is older loses a job because they can't or wont keep up with technology but that's life... like it or not.


1) Bands in bars ARE suffering. More MP3 DJs are being hired. Nowadays, they only get hired for Saturdays, and MAYBE Fridays


2) Like I said, I'M not worried. The Automated Karaoke Host failed here. It's Toq, in an asian bar where they've been successful, that I'm worried about. Bad business decision.

3) True, but when YOU are the one that brings it about, without thinking, YOU are the one that steals someone's livlihood.

1) You'll have sites that are hot and will demand your personal appearance and attention, you'll have sites that are slow like you mentioned, and can probably do without your presence.

2) Even if you're only getting paid the equiv of $5@hr at your slow sites, it's still an extra $60 @ day for you. I like $1800@mo.

3) Locked to an on demand system, with no customibility, or advanced features like rotation management.



4) Joe sometimes I think you're so blinded by the CDG vs PC argument you fail to see what i'm trying to do here. It's really got nothing to do with that argument at all. I see you as a brother KJ, but damn dude, you gotta get off that kick. I fookin love you man.



1) If it can be pulled off without my presence, Then there is no need for me.


2) I get paid 65 dollars an hour at my SLOWEST site. Ain't gonna happen your way.


3) Which is one reason why I'M needed.


4) Most important of all. This has nothing to do with CDG VS PC. This is only about business. I love you too, and you are shooting yourself in the foot. Don't you get it? You are making yourself less needed with an automatic system. THINK!

Dude PM me about the dupes... I may take some off your hands.


Me too!

Dude PM me about the dupes... I may take some off your hands.

I was here first tho! That goes for you too Joe! ;)


Actually Toq if you want to go with the "set up a duplicate system" route then go for it! I don't NEED extra cdgs. It would have been nice to get some extra songs but you gotta take care of that little girl of yours.. :)


on the other hands, it looks like you may have a bidding war on your hands if two people want the same disc.. *lol* Now where did I put my guerilla gear..

-James

I think like everything in life, automation will have its ups and downs.. There are places where it's going to be a perfect fit, and there are others where it will not.

Who is right? Only time will tell.. In the mean time, why don't you two agree to disagree and shake hands? ;)


I do share a part of Toqer's vision tho. I dream of a world where karaoke isn't seen as a total joke, where the karaoke providers aren't treating their customers like the hardened criminal lowlife scum of the universe that we must be for wanting to do things differently.

Automation has its proper place.. If i can have something that will allow me to protect my music collection, and handle my rotation for me then that allows me to focus on what is important.. My show and the people who come to it.

It allows me to spend more time on THEM instead of the generic components of any dj/kj gig. This will automatically make me more valuable because better customer service means more money for the bar and myself.

the VERY second i get those letters I need from tricerasoft, I'm going to be going full throttle with the home setup i already use privately.

take care all

-James

1) Bands in bars ARE suffering. More MP3 DJs are being hired. Nowadays, they only get hired for Saturdays, and MAYBE Fridays

Isn't that what I just said?

I never said that bands weren't still suffering. But, it has nothing what so ever to do with whether a DJs are using mp3's or CD's. A DJ always has been cheaper to hire then a band.

You missed my point. Bands all feared the juke because it represented a total replacement of them thru a sort of automated music.... heck even DJs suffered when they came out.


2) Like I said, I'M not worried. The Automated Karaoke Host failed here. It's Toq, in an asian bar where they've been successful, that I'm worried about. Bad business decision.

That maybe true... but it's not necessarily a bad business decision.... do you honestly think say, video games in a bar is a bad business decision or a payphone a bad decision... or a jukebox a bad business decision... they all make either the bar or the rental agency money... gee that seems like a good idea to me.


3) True, but when YOU are the one that brings it about, without thinking, YOU are the one that steals someone's livlihood.

What does someone elses livelihood have to do with my decision to automate or to bring about change in the business.... why should I care.... honestly?

What happens to someone who wont or cant change with the world is of no interest to my interests.... my well being is my first priority and if making automation the norm instead of the oddity makes me money who cares who loses out.... that's business, period.

That's all I gotta say for a rebuttal. This argument is like that scene in the movie idiocracy. Circular and goes nowhere.

YouTube - It's Got What Plants Crave

Great discussion guys.

Like it or not if you don't go with future technology you miss the bus and are left behind. I have also seen the auto KJ cavs unit in Asian bars. Will it completely replace a KJ? I don't think so, however I do see this as an additional service to make more money. Isn't that part of being in business to increase revenue? Thinking outside of the box is many times a good thing.

As far as the microphones go, yes I sanitize mine during cold/flu season also, however you can catch that stuff anywhere, shaking hands, doors, counter tops. Yes, it is great that some KJ's use it however I really don't see this as a reason not to have an auto KJ.

After all if a place has auto KJ then they also have to have someone to maintain the equipment, update the song lists, replace equipment. I think this is where Toqer is coming from. It is an added source of income. Nothing wrong with that.

See Carolyn gets it...

Great discussion guys.

Like it or not if you don't go with future technology you miss the bus and are left behind. I have also seen the auto KJ cavs unit in Asian bars. Will it completely replace a KJ? I don't think so, however I do see this as an additional service to make more money. Isn't that part of being in business to increase revenue? Thinking outside of the box is many times a good thing.

As far as the microphones go, yes I sanitize mine during cold/flu season also, however you can catch that stuff anywhere, shaking hands, doors, counter tops. Yes, it is great that some KJ's use it however I really don't see this as a reason not to have an auto KJ.

After all if a place has auto KJ then they also have to have someone to maintain the equipment, update the song lists, replace equipment. I think this is where Toqer is coming from. It is an added source of income. Nothing wrong with that.

Fear of letting a computer or other device take control of our shows is a driving point for most that grind their feet against PC's. Let's face it we've been doing karaoke and handling our rotations manually since the inception and it's hard to take that leap of faith and allow the computer to do this mundane work for us.... we are blinded by things such as potential computer crashes and so called legalities to see the big picture.... but guess what CD players fail & playing that burned compilation CD isn't necisarially legal either.

However, a well maintained computer can run without fail just as long as your typical pro-quality cd player... and as for legalities for the most part as long as you maintain that 1:1 ratio of disc:mp3+g you are covered and wont be bothered in the imediate future.

But, I digress as this topic is not about piracy.... it's about ones willingness to see the future for what it is which is to say automation can make life for the KJ and thier singers much more efficient and in the long run more fun... and not as a threat to ones livelihood.

By opening up this potential revenue stream we are not cutting the throats of the live KJ.... there will always be a place for live shows... as there will always be a place for the karaoke jukebox when it arrives and trust me it's comming. No one needs to fear this... embrass the change and move with it... don't let karaoke manufacture's dictate our future it is our's to make not their's.... (que "God Bless America") we are a people of freedom, a people free to choose our medium of playback of choice, we will not stand idolly by while big corporations shove their karaoke on demand, thier Dopi's on us... no we will stand up and fight for our rights.... tooooooooooooo paaaaarty!

oops sorry.... jokerswild sheepishly crawls over his wall peaking over to see the aftermath of this post....

1) That maybe true... but it's not necessarily a bad business decision.... do you honestly think say, video games in a bar is a bad business decision or a payphone a bad decision... or a jukebox a bad business decision... they all make either the bar or the rental agency money... gee that seems like a good idea to me.



2) What does someone elses livelihood have to do with my decision to automate or to bring about change in the business.... why should I care.... honestly?

What happens to someone who wont or cant change with the world is of no interest to my interests.... my well being is my first priority and if making automation the norm instead of the oddity makes me money who cares who loses out.... that's business, period.



1) Oh, they ALL make good business sense for the venue. However, a band, or DJ, or Karaoke Host gains NOTHING from then, and loses some. Toq is not a venue owner. The less he appears to be doing, the less apparent worth he has, whether he works and contributes in real life doesn't matter. THAT'S what makes it a bad business decision. IF, for some weird reason, the owners give him of the songs done during the day:

A) Is it worth risking a diminished perception of his job?

B) Is it worh possibly diminishing his night (tipping) crowd by having many of them finish singing before he gets there?

BTW- If he DOES get a percentage of the day songs, I can GUARANTEE it will be a temporary arrangement- If for no other reason then whoever agrees to it will eventually start feeling pretty stupid about paying someone who's not there. And hey, if it can be run during the day, why not the night? Nobody's adjusting sound or interacting , or doing anything else during the day. If it's successful, that means the customers don't care. The floor sweeper can babysit the mic.


2) Actually, this question surprised me. Yes, business is business, but to quote Marley's Ghost: "Humanity is my business". Sure, be competitive. However, Toq's associate is NOT a competitor. OK, I'll only speak for myself here to keep tension down. If I were in Toq's situation, and since I am virtually certain there will be no real long term gains for me, and since this person was there first, and has been kind and friendly to me, I would feel absololutely awful if she lost her livlihood because of me, especially since her livlihood is non-competitive, causing no detriment to mine. It comes with having a heart. Keep in mind that I'm only talking about my perception of this situation, and am not generalizing...That come out right?...:sqwink:

Joe:

I give up... your just not getting this at all...

I'll try one more time

Bands and DJs are still in demand despite the fact that using a jukebox might be cheaper. Why? Because there are things that bands and DJs do that a jukebox just can't and that's read the crowd and for that matter act as a MC. That's why jukeboxes haven't taken over the entertainment choice of bars and never will....

Same goes for KJs.... we can have all the automation in the world at our disposal but there are things (the entertainment side) that KJs do that a KJ Jukebox never will be able to do... sure it could serve up the music and allow singers to set their own effects and levels.... but it is the KJ that makes it entertaining....

Just because technology makes our jobs easier doesn't negate or devalue our services....

It takes no more skill, sorry, to insert a CD que a track and press play then it takes to make a few mouse clicks and que the same digital track. I'm so sorry to burst your bubble on that....

The less time spent behind the equipment searching thru CDs or queing music be it karaoke or DJ music is more time that can be spent entertaining and engaging the crowd.... This is where you will show your worth... not by pressing play but in the act of engaging the audience and then maintaining the energy of that crowd... keeping them in the venue to spend money. The bar could give two sheets whether you use CD or a Computer or how much work it does or doesn't take to operate the equipment... as long as you are putting arses in seats and money in the til they don't care, period.

So, if by automation more people can be served and more people will stay longer then you are worth your weight in gold if you can operate whatever equipment to meet these ends.

2) Actually, this question surprised me. Yes, business is business, but to quote Marley's Ghost: "Humanity is my business". Sure, be competitive. However, Toq's associate is NOT a competitor. OK, I'll only speak for myself here to keep tension down. If I were in Toq's situation, and since I am virtually certain there will be no real long term gains for me, and since this person was there first, and has been kind and friendly to me, I would feel absololutely awful if she lost her livlihood because of me, especially since her livlihood is non-competitive, causing no detriment to mine. It comes with having a heart. Keep in mind that I'm only talking about my perception of this situation, and am not generalizing...That come out right?...:sqwink:

That's a very comendable sentament but we live in the real world.... and in the real world you either advance or remain stagnant in your state in life.... it is your choice to remain that way or to move forward... but, you must move forward or step asside....

Joe I can give a rats ass about my competition since at least 8 of the 10 karaoke venues i surveyed last year were to the best of my opinion pirating. They shouldn't even be in business.

Joe:



1) Bands and DJs are still in demand despite the fact that using a jukebox might be cheaper. Why? Because there are things that bands and DJs do that a jukebox just can't and that's read the crowd and for that matter act as a MC. That's why jukeboxes haven't taken over the entertainment choice of bars and never will....



2) Just because technology makes our jobs easier doesn't negate or devalue our services....

3) It takes no more skill, sorry, to insert a CD que a track and press play then it takes to make a few mouse clicks and que the same digital track. I'm so sorry to burst your bubble on that....
So, if by automation more people can be served and more people will stay longer then you are worth your weight in gold if you can operate whatever equipment to meet these ends.


1) I DO understand what you're saying, it's just not the subject I'm discussing. I already agree that good hosts in American themed bars have nothing to worry about, and agree about the bands and so on. My concern was specifically about brother Toqer's venue, and for Toq himself- no place else.


2) It DOES devalue the PERCEPTION of how hard we work, whether our services diminish in real life or not.


3) I agree, but since "press n' play" is about 1% of what I do, I have no concerns. It's ME, and my ability to interact, motivate, keep non-singers happy, etc..., that keeps the venues and events that I work full and the patrons/guests happy. I have been told this more times than I can count by patrons, guests, owners, and clients.

You are right. Anyone can push and play, but to create a demand for YOUR services, you have do more than the minimum. You have to give all you can, with all your skills...mixing sound for each singer, providing top audio equipment, the skills to use it, solving customer questions and problems, make each singer feel like a star, and all - including non-singers- feel welcome, and much, much more. Press & play, "next!", press & play? Sorry, not in MY house. :sqcool:

Joe I can give a rats ass about my competition since at least 8 of the 10 karaoke venues i surveyed last year were to the best of my opinion pirating. They shouldn't even be in business.



No argument Toq. I am concerned only for you in YOUR venue, not outside competition.

Joe it's nice and all you're concerned, but the venue knows if they had to pay an IT person to maintain everything, it would cost them a lot more money than I charge them.

It's not simply pushing play as you suggest. It's setting up a network, setting up kiosk hardware and playlist screens. Configuring my DAW(digital audio workstation) with appropriate effects for singers, making them sound anywhere from cher to justin timberlake.

You're the one saying I do less, and I find that offensive.

That's a very comendable sentament but we live in the real world.... and in the real world you either advance or remain stagnant in your state in life.... it is your choice to remain that way or to move forward... but, you must move forward or step asside....


Toq's co-worker does not impede HIM. She is not competition. Her elimination would be of no benefit to him. He will not advance through her elimination. Her loss of livlihood would have exactly NO EFFECT on Toqer, plus or minus.

She is a human being with a life, friends, family, and responsibilities of her own. Taking her livlihood away for no reason is equivalant to walking across the street to kick a stranger. Saying "Oh well, look at the new toy (which, again, is of no business use to Toqer himself)" doesn't change that.

BTW- I don't give a fat dam about "how the world is now". I have been extremely successful in several businesses ( to the point of being able to live life on MY terms) without going out of my way to hurt others for no reason. Yes, it CAN be done. Why work a bit harder? Because if you lose your humanity, your heart, your ability to feel what others feel, and CARE, than you lose pretty much all that is of worth in yourself. In my humble opinion, of course.

To put it in selfish terms, if you want anybody in this world to love, care, and worry about you, it'd would be a good idea to be able to do the same.

Joe: You are taking this as a direct attack against you and that just isn't what this topic is all about....

If you have an employee that is unable to or unwilling to learn a system no mater what kind of system it is... that they must learn or employment can not continue that is their loss... no this employee is of no consequence to toqer, me or even you for that matter.... their lively hood is in their own hands I will not cry if in the advancement of this or any industry pushes out those that are unwilling or unable to keep up with it... it's just not my problem.

This type of person in an impediment to the advancement of a company because this person who ever they are can't do it....

Would you want a surgen working on your heart that wasn't willing to utilize the latest equipment that is guaranteed to prolong your life or kill you if he don't?

Would you support this surgen if not using this equipment ment them keeping their job or being told to hit the bricks?

Sure many advancements in the world are not good, but others are very benificial... this could be benificial to the industry... it means less work while gaining the ability to use your time more wisely by engaging the patrons more, period.

Ok everyone, lets take a deep breath and mellow out here please. Just a reminder, keep in mind the community guidelines when posting, thanks.

Ok everyone, lets take a deep breath and mellow out here please. Just a reminder, keep in mind the community guidelines when posting, thanks.

No worries....

1) Isn't that part of being in business to increase revenue? Thinking outside of the box is many times a good thing.


2) After all if a place has auto KJ then they also have to have someone to maintain the equipment, update the song lists, replace equipment. I think this is where Toqer is coming from. It is an added source of income. Nothing wrong with that.



1) Yes, for yourself- YOUR business, not someone else's at your own expense.


2) True. However, then one must make a choice: Do you want to be a Karaoke Host or an Equipment Maintainance person? Nothing wrong with either choice, but if not a host, then would one have gotten into the business in the first place?

Joe: You are taking this as a direct attack against you and that just isn't what this topic is all about....

If you have an employee that is unable to or unwilling to learn a system no mater what kind of system it is... that they must learn or employment can not continue that is their loss... no this employee is of no consequence to toqer, me or even you for that matter.... their lively hood is in their own hands I will not cry if in the advancement of this or any industry pushes out those that are unwilling or unable to keep up with it... it's just not my problem.

This type of person in an impediment to the advancement of a company because this person who ever they are can't do it....

Would you want a surgen working on your heart that wasn't willing to utilize the latest equipment that is guaranteed to prolong your life or kill you if he don't?

Would you support this surgen if not using this equipment ment them keeping their job or being told to hit the bricks?

Sure many advancements in the world are not good, but others are very benificial... this could be benificial to the industry... it means less work while gaining the ability to use your time more wisely by engaging the patrons more, period.

Rob, trust me, there's nothing personal being taken, love ya ta death.

What you are discussing is the job and venues in general. What I'm trying to get across is that I am only talking about this specific situation. The hostess in question has no need to make any changes because management hasn't requested it, and she has her own patrons who seem to prefer HER style of doing things. TOQER is not an owner. Therefore, she is in no one's way! If the owners wanted her to change it would be a different story. Toq is just another employee- like her. HE is the only one pushing for change. What she does or doesn't do happens at a time when he's not there, and if HER patrons were unhappy with HER, she would already be gone. In this situation, she would be losing her livlihood simply because she worked in the same place where another employee made a business error ( and yes, unless you can tell me how Toq will benefit IN THE LONG RUN, that's what it is. The style of karaoke that Toq employs involves very little customer interaction, so the "time savings" won't be put in that direction. I have already listed the other possible risks and setbacks.)

Bottom line: If either she or Toq loses what they have worked so hard for at this venue and in this situation, it will be for absolutely no good reason. Whether you are mobile and independent, or work out of a single club as an employee, you are working for yourself to earn an income- running your own business. It is bad business to willingly give someone else the edge. If the owners came up with the idea it would be a good business decision (maybe) on their part. However, HANDING them something that could be detrimental to YOUR business is not. That is what happened here.

Joker, my apologies if I sound too edgy here. I'm not upset at all, I am just trying to get through that I am not arguing technology here, I'm only discussing business strategy and maybe using humanity and empathy issues to help put the point across. In the end, what's gonna happen is gonna happen- or maybe not. :sqrolleyes: I am really posting to encourage looking before leaping. Once again, I could be completely off base regarding this situation and all will be well. It's what I'm hoping for. However it turns out, I still encourage all to take time to examine ALL possible consequences of any business decision. :sqcool:

I'm almost afraid to post here because of you joe.

It seems like everytime I make some sort of technological advancement or achievment, you're just waiting in the wings.

I didn't really bother reading your other posts because it's just gonna be the same longwinded posts, who doesn't have anything beneficial to add to the thread.

You need to cool it joe. It's getting old real fast.

Rob, trust me, there's nothing personal being taken, love ya ta death.

What you are discussing is the job and venues in general. What I'm trying to get across is that I am only talking about this specific situation. The hostess in question has no need to make any changes because management hasn't requested it, and she has her own patrons who seem to prefer HER style of doing things. TOQER is not an owner. Therefore, she is in no one's way! If the owners wanted her to change it would be a different story. Toq is just another employee- like her. HE is the only one pushing for change. What she does or doesn't do happens at a time when he's not there, and if HER patrons were unhappy with HER, she would already be gone. In this situation, she would be losing her livlihood simply because she worked in the same place where another employee made a business error ( and yes, unless you can tell me how Toq will benefit IN THE LONG RUN, that's what it is. The style of karaoke that Toq employs involves very little customer interaction, so the "time savings" won't be put in that direction. I have already listed the other possible risks and setbacks.)

Bottom line: If either she or Toq loses what they have worked so hard for at this venue and in this situation, it will be for absolutely no good reason. Whether you are mobile and independent, or work out of a single club as an employee, you are working for yourself to earn an income- running your own business. It is bad business to willingly give someone else the edge. If the owners came up with the idea it would be a good business decision (maybe) on their part. However, HANDING them something that could be detrimental to YOUR business is not. That is what happened here.

Joker, my apologies if I sound too edgy here. I'm not upset at all, I am just trying to get through that I am not arguing technology here, I'm only discussing business strategy and maybe using humanity and empathy issues to help put the point across. In the end, what's gonna happen is gonna happen- or maybe not. :sqrolleyes: I am really posting to encourage looking before leaping. Once again, I could be completely off base regarding this situation and all will be well. It's what I'm hoping for. However it turns out, I still encourage all to take time to examine ALL possible consequences of any business decision. :sqcool:


I understand what you are saying....

Here's the thing... if I convert all my systems over to PC I'd expect that all of my employees to be able to operate these new PC's.... if they weren't able to do so or didn't want too... then there's the door...

I know that toqer isn't the owner of 7 Bamboo but he is the manager of the karaoke systems in place there... believe me when I tell you if the owners see a profit potential off of what toqer is doing and the other host isn't able to or simply wont learn the new system that person can always go back to serving drinks.... she ain't gonna be out of a job.... she might not be hosting anymore but certainly not pushed out on the street...

Am I right toqer?

Here's how I see it:

By allowing technology to take over the mundane operations of running a karaoke show.... I do not see this as handing over to an owner something that is going to put me out of a job... that's just fear of technology... hense why I said paranoia...

Technology is a great thing! But, it will never replace the human element that many people need... this is why most of the places with the CAVS systems don't do very well without a host...

I do see your point really I do...

Let me see if I can synoposis your point...

By toqer implementing technology which basically takes over the hosts duties almost entirely he is handing over his job to the computer and therefore putting himself and the other host out of a job... is that basicly it in a nut shell?

Thing is this technology that you fear is taking over really isn't.... sure you no longer need a host to take tickets, find a CDG, insert it into a player, call the singer, maintain the rotation, and press play... but who cares about that....

To me the above is just the mechanics of the job and not the real job of hosting at all....

As a host it is our job to entice people in and then keep them there... we can do that easier if we aren't tied up with the mechanics of running a show... Automated systems such as toqer's free's us up from the mundane mechanics of running a show.

Ok everyone, lets take a deep breath and mellow out here please. Just a reminder, keep in mind the community guidelines when posting, thanks.


Carolyn, though it sounds heated, it's because the Joker, Toq, and I are all very passionate about what we do. We are also used to beating the heck out of each other :sqrolleyes:. We all know that it's not personal. However, for the sake of the forum, I will try to gentle up a bit. :sqembarrassed:

I'm almost afraid to post here because of you joe.

It seems like everytime I make some sort of technological advancement or achievment, you're just waiting in the wings.

If you don't like it, go somewhere else. I didn't really bother reading your other posts because it's just gonna be the same longwinded posts, who doesn't have anything beneficial to add to the thread.

You need to cool it joe. It's getting old real fast.

Kinda icky Toq. I guess I should clear up my position regarding technology. I am an electronic design engineer with an EE degree. I have designed and built a computer around bubble memory, using only fiberoptics for connections. As an exercise, I designed and built a 100w home karaoke system using MP3 and MP4 technology. The player and video source can fit in the palm of your hand. With that I added a touch screen mixer slightly bigger than a deck of cards, and a mini 100w amp the size of a paperback. and two 3 way 40w 6" bookshelf speakers, with a 7" LCD monitor. The whole system minus mics fits in a photographer's camera bag. I designed and built Hi-Def video in the 70s equal to what's available today, using the AIM ( Automated Interlace Module) circuit for medical imaging.

Not only do I USE cutting edge technology, I CREATE IT.. I use what I can, but I like getting top money for what I do. I am also a business man, and have the smarts not to shoot myself in the foot. If you have read this thread, then you know that my only issue is my concern for you, because I respect the passion with which you do your work. I am not trying to disparage what you do, I am trying to add business acumen.

In the DJ forums I have bought up perceived value and worth as opposed to actuality. I know of a club DJ who worked with the house system. He would come in with a couple of flash drives around his neck, plug, and play. Ya wanna know how fast he was out of a HUGE paying job? Apparently some one made a copy of the drives while he was on break.


I wish some one would understand that this is about YOU, and that I'm on your side. Think about it. What possible long term benefit is it TO YOU to hand your employers an automated version of what you are paid to do?? Really? If you disagree, please remember that I respect you, and would be happy to learn, if you would tell me the error in my thinking. I am NOT trolling, I'm truly worried for you....and my apologies for my "windbagatude". It's just that I'm as passionate about this business as you.

Carolyn, though it sounds heated, it's because the Joker, Toq, and I are all very passionate about what we do. We are also used to beating the heck out of each other :sqrolleyes:. We all know that it's not personal. However, for the sake of the forum, I will try to gentle up a bit. :sqembarrassed:



Alrighty then, I am going to ask that we refrain from any name calling please.

There isn't any need to beat the heck out of each other, beating up on each other goes against what ODJT is about and hurts the comradery and friendships that have been established.

Real simple here, just agree to disagree. Thanks everyone.

I understand what you are saying....

Here's the thing... if I convert all my systems over to PC I'd expect that all of my employees to be able to operate these new PC's.... if they weren't able to do so or didn't want too... then there's the door...

I know that toqer isn't the owner of 7 Bamboo but he is the manager of the karaoke systems in place there... believe me when I tell you if the owners see a profit potential off of what toqer is doing and the other host isn't able to or simply wont learn the new system that person can always go back to serving drinks.... she ain't gonna be out of a job.... she might not be hosting anymore but certainly not pushed out on the street...

Am I right toqer?

OK, we're seeing eye to eye here. I am in complete agreement. If an employee can't fulfill the requirements of the job that the OWNERS wish her to do, so be it. However, if her ( and possibly his )job is not lost due to lack of skills, but simple erased by the owners using the autokj?

Here's how I see it:
Let me see if I can synoposis your point...

By toqer implementing technology which basically takes over the hosts duties almost entirely he is handing over his job to the computer and therefore putting himself and the other host out of a job... is that basicly it in a nut shell?

Thing is this technology that you fear is taking over really isn't.... sure you no longer need a host to take tickets, find a CDG, insert it into a player, call the singer, maintain the rotation, and press play... but who cares about that....

To me the above is just the mechanics of the job and not the real job of hosting at all....

As a host it is our job to entice people in and then keep them there... we can do that easier if we aren't tied up with the mechanics of running a show... Automated systems such as toqer's free's us up from the mundane mechanics of running a show.


You're about halfway there. I don't fear it. Autokj technology has been around since CDs in Japan, and at least 12 years here. It's not even state of the art. In MOST places it doesn't work, but it has in some Asian bars-resulting in NO HOST, and MAY in Toq's particular venue. I agree that, especially in my case, the mechanics are only a small part of what it is to host. However, from what I understand, Toq's style is radically different than mine. If he is no longer needed for the mechanics, and isn't big on interaction, what else will he do to earn his pay? Equipment maintainance? OK. However, my understanding is that he likes to host..?

As for the technology you all think I worry about: virtually ALL technology available to the consumer is around 15 years behind state of the art. Even CIA espionage equipment is around 5 years behind. Basically, what you call "new" is merely rehashed software and jiggled hardware. None of it is a concern to me, because I've already seen it, tried it, and gone past it- and maybe even designed better. I choose to use what I do for business purposes, and it pays- a LOT.

I really wish that it could be understood that this whole thing revolves ONLY around my concern for TOQER and his associate, and is not a technology debate.

However, if my concerns cause tension and aren't helpful, then I respectfully shut my face.

Alrighty then, I am going to ask that we refrain from any name calling please.

There isn't any need to beat the heck out of each other, beating up on each other goes against what ODJT is about and hurts the comradery and friendships that have been established.

Real simple here, just agree to disagree. Thanks everyone.

Carolyn, I re-read my posts. I don't ever use negative personalizations (call names), especially in a case where the other posters hold as much of my respect as those two. By "beating up" I only meant spirited debate. Both these guys know they are top notch in my book!

Ok I get what you are saying Joe... I was in the military and if you want to talk about out dated equipment then the Navy is full of state-of-the-60s art technology that I'd agree on...

Sure many other karaoke hosting softwares are simply re-hashed DJ softwares with sort of a rotation added and if you are judgeing all karaoke softwares by PCDJ you'd be way off base on a lot of the newer hosters...

AutOKdj for one does way more than you'd expect it to do... sure it doesn't have the bells and whistles that say something like compuhost nor does it have dual players like say Roxbox or Show Presenter or even MTU Hoster does... but what it does have and does better than anyother hoster is rotation handling and automation.... this is where this program excels and outpaces the rest... and in that light it is inovative...

Not one asian bar that uses products such as CAVs to eliminate the need of a host can handle a rotation... pure and simple strip it down that is what autokdj is really about.

Add into it the singer kiosk and fully automate and sure you could have a karaoke jukebox of sorts... but it's not a perfect system yet... and is continually evolveing into something with a far greater reach than just one lonely old bar.

It can and does work in other venues... I've proven that... mostly at weddings but if it can work at toqer's little bar and my weddings and countless other users have taylored it to work for them it can't be all bad.

Notice I used the word "taylor" this system is scaleable to each users use... and can be configured to work almost any way a host chooses from manual to fully automated... your choice.

Heck one of the latest features will be a way for a person to add/donate a new song to the kj's library via paypal... how cool is that?

There are a lot of things about automation that make sense from a business standpoint... #1 would be dead time between singers. I know you don't have that problem but other hosts do... #2 the host no longer has to worry about his rotation being fair the computer handles all that based on a set of rule options set by the KJ... For me this would really be the number one reason the automation is important... (no more slips of paper or paper rotations)

There are no other hosters out there that can truely boast all that autokdj is and can do.

I personally choose to run in manual advance mode which basically means I have to press play for each singer as their turn comes up... I do it this way because I'm not in a venue long enough to get regulars to learn how a fully automated system can work....

I know you have all your karaoke on your hard drive... why not give autokdj a shot... I'd be more than happy to help you with the initial setup...

You've seen my video on using Power CDG Burner right? I think I will do a video like that for using AutOKdj too. Maybe then folks will see some of the benefits to an automated system...

Joker, that was a great post. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with 7 Bamboo, specifically, Toqer and associate specifically, and their specific situation which is all I'm concerned about. To be blunt, from what he tells me, Toqer isn't much for interaction. If that's true, and he's freed of the mechanics, there's no reason for him to be there. The funny thing is, since the hostess DOES interact, she may even be safer than him!

Please, I'm begging you- no moretechnology posts. This is only about business, and TOQ and 7 Bamboo

Her interact my butt.... hahaha 'tis to laugh!

Watch her show it's usually Bore-dcasted on Tu-Wed 9pm CST just go to www.7bamboo.com and follow the link for the live stream...

Trust me she interacts like an incompatable disc format.... "error, error no os found"

Of course toqer is there durring the busy nights thur-sat.... his crowds might be do in part to the time of the week but also to how the show is run... very little gaps between singers and almost no dead air...

As for interaction by toqer... that mostly consists on chastising singers for missuse of equipment and running mics out to the next singer, collecting them back, running lights, monitoring the song playlist, monitoring and helping people use the kiosk... He of course does the usual stuff such as calling out for the next singer... his show is soo fast paced most of the time that there isn't time for the BS of other shows.

1))Her interact my butt.... hahaha 'tis to laugh!

Watch her show it's usually Bore-dcasted on Tu-Wed 9pm CST just go to www.7bamboo.com and follow the link for the live stream...



2) As for interaction by toqer... that mostly consists on chastising singers for missuse of equipment and running mics out to the next singer, collecting them back, running lights, monitoring the song playlist, monitoring and helping people use the kiosk... He of course does the usual stuff such as calling out for the next singer... his show is soo fast paced most of the time that there isn't time for the BS of other shows.


1) Ok, my bad on her interacting. I must have misread an old post.


2) Here you seem to agree with me? :sqerr: Since he really doesn't do personal interaction ( which is the way it's gotta be with rotations such as his), what else is there for him to do?. In the "No Host" Asian bars, ther IS no rotation. First one up with and feeding money sings. The only "control" is if some one goes up too often too quickly the crowd cold shoulders his rudeness with silence and glares until he gets the idea. In most cases, however, they are very polite.

Since 7 Bamboo, like many Asian bars, operates on the bribe/tip system, what does the rotation mean anyway? The only difference is that Toq won't be getting those bribes/tips.

What I've been saying all along is that Toq's autokj is probably going to be a moneymaker for the bar, which is good for them. However, after three pages, I still can't see any business benefit for Toqer. If he gains time, he has no place to use it. IF he gets a percentage it will almost certainly be tempory.

I've got an idea :sqeek:: In the interest of lowering tension levels, howsabout simply listing the benefits? If they are not arguable, such as the two above that I mentioned, I will bow and scrape my way into silence. If not, then all I ask is that Toqer keep his eyes and ears open, be aware of any attitude changes in the venue, and just be careful. What do ya think? :sqwink:

Gentlemen, "assumed" I have asked on two occasions to tone this down you obviously believe you have done so, however you are merely baiting each other with your statements sorry, but I am closing this thread.