When Using Fog...

Ok guys heres the deal, I have an opportunity to use fog at a sweet 16 this friday. I really want to as it makes the DJ scans look 10x as impressive as they already are, but I've got some concerns. In talking with the lady in charge of the clubhouse (venue) she said that she had never delt with fog before, but as long as there was no staining, or oder it was fine. I asked about fire alarms, and she had no idea. I know that foggers can and do set off smoke detectors, but not heat sensors. Infact today I set off the alarms in my house while trying out a new fogger. What would you guys do in my position? One option is to test the fogger before I setup as early as possible to see if it sets off the alarms, but in the rare event that it does I don't want the FD showing up in case the system is linked. Any suggestions? I won't be using much fog, just as much as it takes to see the lighting beams for a party of around 100 people.

I use an Antari "haze" machine that uses regular fog juice but turns it into a fine mist and not thick fog, but I've only tripped an alarm once using it (and I use it a lot). My motto is go for it and if it sets something off - stop :)

Chances are you'll be okay. If you are really worried about it, try it out ahead of time or contact the venue owner directly and chat with them.

I've gone both ways in the past, but generally it's best to always steer clear unless you're 100% confident that alarms will not go off. I have set off a few alarms in the past, and since then I basically never use fog. The last thing you want is for the FD to have to show up and clear the building in the middle of the party. Talk about buzzkill.

My suggestion: don't bother, it's not worth it.

How big is the room that you are using, and how high is the ceiling?

Go look to see what type of fire systems they have in place. Learn what is a particle detection or heat detection unit. In many cases you can identify them by glance. If she doesn't know about particle detection, it probably isn't there....depending on the age/type of facility. I would avoid 'just seeing if an alarm goes off' even in advance, because if the manager doesn't know about the fire systems, she probably couldn't turn them off. In addition, some fire systems result in an automatic fire department call, which can result in a charge to the venue.

Good luck.

Go look to see what type of fire systems they have in place. Learn what is a particle detection or heat detection unit. In many cases you can identify them by glance. If she doesn't know about particle detection, it probably isn't there....depending on the age/type of facility. I would avoid 'just seeing if an alarm goes off' even in advance, because if the manager doesn't know about the fire systems, she probably couldn't turn them off. In addition, some fire systems result in an automatic fire department call, which can result in a charge to the venue.

Good luck.

Thats what I was afraid of, automatic FD call. I'll have a chat with her again tomorrow and express my concerns. If I can't use it, then I'll make due without it.

or do what I do, pull out the phone jack on the ammunicator/fire alarm... Just Kidding.

Use fog in moderation and in short bursts all will be Okay!

I've gone both ways in the past, but generally it's best to always steer clear unless you're 100% confident that alarms will not go off. I have set off a few alarms in the past, and since then I basically never use fog. The last thing you want is for the FD to have to show up and clear the building in the middle of the party. Talk about buzzkill.

My suggestion: don't bother, it's not worth it.

How big is the room that you are using, and how high is the ceiling?

I totally disagree that it's not worth it...if you spend thousands on your light show it's a MUST at the events it works with - private parties, HS dances...Like Val said, learn what your dealing with - and talk to the venue, they should have an answer....if they don't ask them to figure it out - they need to know.

Some systems also automatically trigger the sprinklers...personal experience. The kids might like it, but my gear getting rained on would make me cry.

What I've found is that the chance of the fire alarm actually going off and the FD showing up, resulting in pissed off client and venue is not worth the added benefit of the light show looking marginally better.

Thanks for the responses guys, another thing I thought might work is adding something to my contract making me not responsible for any adverse effects of fog including fines etc. Any suggestions/opinions on this?

Thanks for the responses guys, another thing I thought might work is adding something to my contract making me not responsible for any adverse effects of fog including fines etc. Any suggestions/opinions on this?

You may CYA by doing this, but only stand [at best] to pi$$ off the client and/or the venue. Think about the value of your relationships; how does that help them?

Or one idea that hasn't been offered yet - see if the venue manager or the maintenance person on staff has or knows a way to manually dis-able or over-ride the fire alarm just for this short 4 hour period. Then when the event is over, re-enable it.

I used to have this done every year at the convention center where I did the big Novant party. I would have the venue manager dis-able and then at the end of the night, re-enable the alarm.

If this particular venue where you are playing doesn't have the ability to over-ride the alarm system, then I would think seriously about not using the fog.

The last thing I would want is the FD showing up, a pissed off venue manager and client or worse yet, the sprinkler system kicking in and getting my equipment wet, or a combination of all the above.

Good luck.

In most locations I have been to, if they can/will allow disabling fire alarm systems, they require a fire department staff to be onsite.

We have gotten to the point of not caring if we can use fog or not. It's rare we can. It doesn't much matter. The majority of the photos on our website are sans fog.

Thanks Val,
Having a fire dept rep makes it all legal speagal keeping all ducks in a row and you out of the hot seat.

Just a note about disabling fire alarms: Do not do this.

Fire alarms may be disabled only by maintenance personnel who are authorized to perform planned maintenance. In these cases, the alarm company is called and a code number is given for say, an hour of maintenance. If the house insurance carrier or fire department get wind of unauthorized disabling of the system there's gonna be hell to pay. And you cannot pass the practice off to the client or venue manager.

Look at this scenario ~ you've got a full house, people, vendors etc. This is why the fire suppression system is in place to begin with. If you disable it while the house is occupied, the insurance carrier will not be happy. Also, the venue will be in violation of local fire code.

Gosh, with the deadly fires in nightclubs of late, you'ns guys are advocating disabling a fire alarm? At'sa matta U? :D

Just one old dog's opinion here. The risk is not commensurate with the return.

Thats why I said make sure you have the fire marshal or Fire member on hand with the venue mgr doing the disabling. I touch nothing thats not my equipment other than plugging in.

Thanks, Jon. :)

Folks, this is not something that's in the DJ company's job description. It's not a client responsibility. This is municipal oversight. Then there's the insurance company's OK. It's not as simple as pulling a plug, trust me on this.

If in fact one may be able to have a member of the fire department on hand (considering that disabling of the system is allowed), he or she will have to be paid overtime to perform his or her duties. You could be talking about a lot of money.

Ya don't "need" fog nor haze to make a good party. Aim your lights, take requests and push the button. You'll get paid and everyone will have a fun time.

Life is easy when ya make it that way. :)

I will reiterate what Fred has said. There is no way...no way I'd ever ask, request that the fire suppression system be disabled.....Fireman present or not.....

On the issue of sprinklers; if they go off...it's not likely just tap water coming out but a mixture of water, rust and other crap that tends to ruin carpets, clothing, etc.

But then again I'm Mr. Doom and Gloom anyway...Why treat the spandex truss covers? Why use LED vs. conventional pars against the walls?

QUOTE - "Or one idea that hasn't been offered yet - see if the venue manager or the maintenance person on staff has or knows a way to manually dis-able or over-ride the fire alarm just for this short 4 hour period. Then when the event is over, re-enable it.

I used to have this done every year at the convention center where I did the big Novant party. I would have the venue manager dis-able and then at the end of the night, re-enable the alarm.

If this particular venue where you are playing doesn't have the ability to over-ride the alarm system, then I would think seriously about not using the fog.

The last thing I would want is the FD showing up, a pissed off venue manager and client or worse yet, the sprinkler system kicking in and getting my equipment wet, or a combination of all the above."

Holy..."where is your head", Greg? Are you serious? Geez ....The last last thing I would want is a fire to occur and people get hurt or die because the fire alarms have been disabled..

You're talking felony charges...............

Jon......even if the Venue manager does it, you requested it.....If it hits the fan, you're going to get sued as well.....

No the client requested it and the venue manager obliged in one or two venues in my past 37 yrs. I was contracted to bring the fog. I think we should just hire you as consultant for all issues from here on in. What are your rates Steve? I could likely cancel my current insurance policy with your tips and knowledge. Thanks for your professional advice.

There's another aspect to this scenario that I hadn't thought of before. Blame it on over 40ish Disease, lol. :)

The older systems were passive. They'd just set there and wait for a situation. In case of fire, they'd send a signal to the local firehouse. A passive system could be disabled simply by pulling the plug.

Modern commercial fire and burglar alarms are active systems. By active, I mean they are in constant contact with the fire department and police. The alarm center actively pings the customer's system 24/7. This is done to ensure that the customer's system is working properly. If there is no response to a ping, the center presumes that there is an issue and dials up the first responder.

I dunno about you guys but if I was the first responder and got called out to a venue in the middle of the night because some egghead had monkeyed with the alarm system so's he could use a DJ fogger, I'm gonna be one ticked off dude, trust me on this one. :mad:

All this is documented. Documentation is a requirement. The insurance carrier must be notified as well as the police and fire company. Then you're gonna find yourself served with a summons. It is illegal to tamper with these things.

That's why I say don't do it. :)

I need to add something to my above post.

I don't condone dis-abling any fire retardent system - EVER!

Even though I mentioned it above, I only did so because it was a situation I was faced with several years ago, and the venue manager did the disabling himself, only after calling downtown ahead of time to isolate the one room. There were three fire department personnel on hand for that event, for the duration. As soon as the venue manager came in at midnight and brought the lights up, he re-activated the system under the watchful eyes of the fire department folks.

Sparkie I thought we both said this once already. I even verified who made the call and it wasnt even me in my situation.It was agreed upon between the Venue MGR and the client.

No the client requested it and the venue manager obliged in one or two venues in my past 37 yrs. I was contracted to bring the fog. I think we should just hire you as consultant for all issues from here on in. What are your rates Steve? I could likely cancel my current insurance policy with your tips and knowledge. Thanks for your professional advice.

Jon - Do I detect a note a sarcasm in that response?

Good to see you're back to your same old self.........

Having been an insurance adjuster for 26 years; having handled major fire and liability losses, I think I'm qualified to comment on issues of legal liability....I'll admit though, that I don't profess to know it all (unlike some)

If you want to expose yourself...to risk, that's your call. Some others may not and should be aware of the potential issues.....

Fred obviously knows what he speaks of as well.......

I need to add something to my above post.

I don't condone dis-abling any fire retardent system - EVER!

Even though I mentioned it above, I only did so because it was a situation I was faced with several years ago, and the venue manager did the disabling himself, only after calling downtown ahead of time to isolate the one room. There were three fire department personnel on hand for that event, for the duration. As soon as the venue manager came in at midnight and brought the lights up, he re-activated the system under the watchful eyes of the fire department folks.

Glad you clarified that Greg...this info wasn't in your original post. Obviously it changes things.....