Opening a Can of Worms, LOL...

Here is a can of worms to open, aimed at those who run a fair rotation, appreciate a fair rotation...singers and KJs alike.

Here is the scenario...read carefully...the show runs 8-12. Before the first singer sings, there are already 20 people in the rotation, who have been there a half hour to 15 minutes early for the privelege. During the rotation, only 8 people sign up, bringing the rotation to 28.

At this rate, it is looking like everyone would get 2 songs in, if no one left and no one else came...which isnt going to happen.

Looking for the rotation to rotate at 10pm, which means the next 20 singers (over an hour) were there early and have waited over 2 hours for their second song...

John and Mary come in at 9:45...and you are 23 singers into a 28 singer rotation.

QUESTIONS:

1. Kjs - where do you put John and Mary in the rotation?
2. Singers - If you are John and Mary, where do you expect to be put in the rotation?
3. How would/should subsequent singers who arrive be handled by you?

Will add how I handle(d) this after a few responses come in...

Here is a can of worms to open, aimed at those who run a fair rotation, appreciate a fair rotation...singers and KJs alike.

Here is the scenario...read carefully...the show runs 8-12. Before the first singer sings, there are already 20 people in the rotation, who have been there a half hour to 15 minutes early for the privelege. During the rotation, only 8 people sign up, bringing the rotation to 28.

At this rate, it is looking like everyone would get 2 songs in, if no one left and no one else came...which isnt going to happen.

Looking for the rotation to rotate at 10pm, which means the next 20 singers (over an hour) were there early and have waited over 2 hours for their second song...

John and Mary come in at 9:45...and you are 23 singers into a 28 singer rotation.

QUESTIONS:

1. Kjs - where do you put John and Mary in the rotation?
2. Singers - If you are John and Mary, where do you expect to be put in the rotation?
3. How would/should subsequent singers who arrive be handled by you?

Will add how I handle(d) this after a few responses come in...

1. Since singers have been waiting over 2 hours to sing... my software would put John and Mary at the end of the current rotation and they'd become singers 29 and 30 officially no matter what... this all depends on the max wait time set in AutOKdj.

2. As a singer I expect to be placed in the rotation where I belong much as I described in 1.

3. Same thing goes for any new singers... if the max wait time has not been reached by any of the old singers... then New singers are placed in the playlist fourth behind the current on stage singer... if more than 5 are in the playlist.... officially in the above scenario they'd be singers 29 and 30 even if the end up singing in the current rotation before say singer 10 of the previous rotation.

Understand?

Thanks Jokers....I understand, but let me clarify what you are saying...at YOUR show, when John and Mary come in at 9:45, they will only have a six singer wait time, and if Bob comes in at 10:01 while singer 27 is singing, he will only have a 3 singer wait to be singer #31....unless the programmed wait time is exceeded, in which case Bob would be placed 4th behind the current singer (singer #27) which would effectively place Bob at singer 31 in the next rotation unless some singers leave?

Thanks Jokers....I understand, but let me clarify what you are saying...at YOUR show, when John and Mary come in at 9:45, they will only have a six singer wait time, and if Bob comes in at 10:01 while singer 27 is singing, he will only have a 3 singer wait to be singer #31....unless the programmed wait time is exceeded, in which case Bob would be placed 4th behind the current singer (singer #27) which would effectively place Bob at singer 31 in the next rotation unless some singers leave?

Basically yeah....

Let me explain how this works:

1. Start of show singers are placed in rotation in the order they are recieved and that constitutes the first rotation.... singers can also place upto 3 songs in the cue before even singing their first song but then can't enque more until they have sung their first....

2. Once we have completed round 1 new singers are placed in rotation with the same set of rules. Meaning if we have say a 20 singer rotation Bob the new guy affectively is placed as singer 21. However, if Bob came in at the start of round 2 and no singer has been waiting more than 30 minutes since their last sung song then based on the rules set I have in the programing the new singer recieves priority and is placed in the fifth slot... (still technically our 21st singer and is placed 21st for rounds that follow)... now if at that very moment of enque .. suzzie our 5th singer has reached the max wait time then Bob will be qued into the 6th position instead. So don't get me wrong singers that have been waiting are not magically bump up to sing sooner they just get locked in their position and a new singer can not bump them for that particular round.

3. Fast forward to 11:30pm a half hour before closeing and say Tommy comes in already drunk from the previous bar and thinks he's gonna get to sing.... chances are at this point there is no room left to fit him in...

AutOKdj can be set with a closing time and it then calculates how many singers can still sing based on the realtime that it would take for the current playlist to be completed (assuming there are no pauses between songs) and then takes the remaining time divided by a magic number of I think 3.50 minutes and then says ok you have X number of singer positions available.

Now at 30minutes to the end of the night with a 21 singer rotation chances are Tommy ain't gonna sing unless some of those folks leave before there turn so in Tommy's case he is told he probably wont get to sing but is placed in standby in case room opens up due to an early departure or two....

Example: Assume that all of the singers in round one have already enqued their second song. Also the max wait timer does not start until they have sung their song in any given round.

Rd1
Bob - 3.50 (Current Singer)
Tom - 4.25
Mark - 3.04
Suzzie - 5.50
Jake - 3.00
John - 3.50
Toby - 4.00
Trent - 3.75
Zack - 3.05

Rd 2 A new singer comes in and wants to sing his name is Harry we have already started and we are now up to Mark in round 2 Toby from the previous round will have only been waiting 20.35 minutes since his last song finished so he would be bumped to allow Harry to sing fourth for this round.

Mark - 3.05 (Current Singer)
Suzzie - 4.00
Jake - 3.50
John - 3.00
Harry - 7.50 (you just had to pick my longest song you egomaniac ;) )
Toby - 4.00
Trent - 3.75
Zack - 3.05

Rd 3 Assume no new singers this round would be looking like this, notice Harry is last in this rotation because even though he got to sing 5th in the previous round he was still technically the 10th singer overall in rotation.

Tom (Current singer)
Bob
Mark
Suzzie
Jake
John
Toby
Trent
Zack
Harry

All rounds after follow the same set of rules.... the only time rotation is altered is in the case of duets for that the programing has no way of dealing with them so it is up to the KJ to determine how to handle them... for me if you sing a duet you blow a solo chance in the current round.... so no singing twice just cause you wanted to do a Greese tune. :)
.................................................. .................................................. ....
This is a departure from how I would do it on paper but through the magic of AutOKdj I can run a show that is completely fair to all and because of the way it's run folks are strongly encouraged to show up early in the evening because if your song is in you sing but, later in the evening there is no guarantee you'll sing.... especially if your a Johnny come late.

If I were doing it on paper Rd 1 first come first serve, Rd 2 new singers to the back of that rotation... that simple. Only because I don't have a stop watch and can't do all the things my computer can do and keep it fair.

I always thought you put people in order of when they hand you their slip. If you have 20 slips already waiting to sing and someone walks up and hands you a slip, they become number 21. The next slip handed to you becomes number 22 and so on. I would announce that if you want to sing another song, bring your slip up with you when you come to the stage to sing. That slip then goes at the bottom and the next slip handed to you goes after that and so on. Since I haven't officially KJed yet, only informally, I'm asking not telling. If my way of thinking isn't the best way to go or if there is a better way I want to know.

wow,,, you guys think a lot!

I do mostly privates so it is a different deal, not at a club or anything...

Wizzy,,, that is how I do it,,, people can olny sign up for one song at a time... if they are early and sing a lot, sometimes I will adjust the rotation to get in a new singer as opposed to someone who has sang 2 or 3 times already...

I always thought you put people in order of when they hand you their slip. If you have 20 slips already waiting to sing and someone walks up and hands you a slip, they become number 21. The next slip handed to you becomes number 22 and so on. I would announce that if you want to sing another song, bring your slip up with you when you come to the stage to sing. That slip then goes at the bottom and the next slip handed to you goes after that and so on. Since I haven't officially KJed yet, only informally, I'm asking not telling. If my way of thinking isn't the best way to go or if there is a better way I want to know.

That's how traditional KJ'n is done... but remember I'm not using song slips per-se' The computer handles the rotations and allows me to work new singers in quickly... what happens a lot of times, and I've seen this, is new singer comes in but since he's got to wait through 20 some odd singers who have already gotten a chance to sing... A. He walks right back out never spending any money or B. He hangs for a while still doesn't order and still leaves.

Now fastforward to the end of the eveining and bear in mind the computer closes singer availability when the playlist reaches or exceeds closing time... New singer walks in... and is not placed in rotation as I explained for new singers that arrive relatively early in the evening... they are placed instead in a standby cue... which means they only sing if someone else leaves or we extend the time of the show.

This type of rotation is virtually impossible without a computer unless your a super KJ....

And Wiz... since you have AutOKdj you can do this too.... checkout the autokdj forums I have a sticky there for how to setup autokdj to do just as I sugest.

I was using autokdj/winamp for a while on my XP computer and I got used to it. I tried to use it on my new VISTA laptop and it crashed. I suspect winamp was probably the culprit. In any case, I got rid of winamp and autokdj and moved on.

I'm currently using a program called Karafun. I most likely will go to Virtual DJ Studio which is both a DJ program and a Karaoke program. I've seen it on a couple of peoples' computers and I'm going to download the demo soon to try it out. It has key change and tempo adjustment. Those are the two most important features to me right now aside from being rock stable and not crashing. I simply don't trust winamp and I can't afford the time and headaches fooling around with it anymore and I don't want to screw up my computer.

I was using autokdj/winamp for a while on my XP computer and I got used to it. I tried to use it on my new VISTA laptop and it crashed. I suspect winamp was probably the culprit. In any case, I got rid of winamp and autokdj and moved on.

I'm currently using a program called Karafun. I most likely will go to Virtual DJ Studio which is both a DJ program and a Karaoke program. I've seen it on a couple of peoples' computers and I'm going to download the demo soon to try it out. It has key change and tempo adjustment. Those are the two most important features to me right now aside from being rock stable and not crashing. I simply don't trust winamp and I can't afford the time and headaches fooling around with it anymore and I don't want to screw up my computer.

Did you try running winamp in XP compatible mode... it's real simple to set and probably would have resolved your issue... instead of knee jerking and removing it.... just a thought. I'm not faulting for not trying as many folks don't even know they can do that... I have an XP machine and programs that I have to run in Win 95 compatibility or it's no joy they simply don't work.

I never had to run winamp in XP compatibility mode when I had it on my XP computer and how would anyone even know that there was such a thing? No other program I use or have ever used made me choose an operating system compatibility mode. It wasn't an option at the time of installation that I remember.

If it was the only choice available to me then I would try to make it work, but the truth is there are lots of other programs and I just don't want to mess with buggy, unstable programs. Been there, done that. I've had lots of problems in the past and just don't want to go there anymore. At the first hint of instability or bugginess I'm gone, that's my new philosophy. I don't want to be a computer geek, I just want to use computer tools. I don't want to be a mechanic, I just want to drive my car, I don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works, I just want to put it into drive and go. Right or wrong that's where I am at this point.

I never had to run winamp in XP compatibility mode when I had it on my XP computer and how would anyone even know that there was such a thing? No other program I use or have ever used made me choose an operating system compatibility mode. It wasn't an option at the time of installation that I remember.

If it was the only choice available to me then I would try to make it work, but the truth is there are lots of other programs and I just don't want to mess with buggy, unstable programs. Been there, done that. I've had lots of problems in the past and just don't want to go there anymore. At the first hint of instability or bugginess I'm gone, that's my new philosophy. I don't want to be a computer geek, I just want to use computer tools. I don't want to be a mechanic, I just want to drive my car, I don't need to know how an internal combustion engine works, I just want to put it into drive and go. Right or wrong that's where I am at this point.


No it's not a general choice at installation because it depends on the program in question.... Microsoft built in this feature to help with compatability of older programs folks have that were upgrading that would cease to work...

It is in a menu option when you right click on the program or icon for the programs executible....

Hopefully these pictures show up in order here they go... ok no they didn't show up in order...

Start with the bottom row then go to the next one where Properties is highlighted from there you get the top picture....

This should be the same in Vista.... maybe if it's not Rick or someone with vista knows for sure how to access that option... but it's there I'm sure of that.

This should be the same in Vista.... maybe if it's not Rick or someone with vista knows for sure how to access that option... but it's there I'm sure of that.

I don't know of a way of programmatically setting these, it has to be set by hand, except running as administrator.

I don't know of a way of programmatically setting these, it has to be set by hand, except running as administrator.

So ok if your running Vista... tell me when you, using your mouse, right click on an executible file or desktop icon.... do you get a popup menu as I posted above? If so do are you able to get to a properties menu such as I posted? If so you should be able to set program compatibilities...

Or it may be done from the control panel now.... I'll have to go to my nearest Best Buy and fart around and see what I can find out... this is going to be agravating for more than just the Wiz here... I can tell he's past trying.

Yup, I'm done.

You're busy, don't spend your time on this. Do something more productive or spend some quality time with your wife. I am so done with winamp. I tried it over the years a few times and always ended up deleting it for one reason or another. I really didn't want to mess with it this time. I was reluctant to put it on my pristine new laptop. After the first hint of trouble it was history. I am now done with winamp for good. I had a much better experience with Quintessential player which no one other than myself seems to have ever heard of. It has great sound, lots of features, tons of skins, very stable. No Karaoke plugin though.:sqfrown: A real shame.

welp to each their own I guess... honestly I have been running winamp for years.... and not one crash that couldn't be attributed to me doing something stupid...

All I can say go with what works for you... it's just a shame you didn't give us a fair shake on vista... but it's also one reason why I wont go vista in the first place good luck to ya.


Ok I think we've hijacked a thread about renaming zip files far to long... now back to your regularly scheduled chat...

This thread is abut renaming zip files?

This thread is abut renaming zip files?

oops wrong thread.... now back to your regularly scheduled rotation chat... :sqembarrassed:


Garsh how embarascasing.....

Thanks again to all for the discussions! I am a seasoned veteran at this, but I am always open to a new idea, and it is important for me to understand what they public may be expecting as opposed to what I may be doing.

I am doing shows 6-7 nights a week, and 3 nights a week I am over 30 singers per rotation, 2 of the other nights hover 15-20.

I suppose THAT could be construed as a good problem to have, but I stress because I know I do lose singers who dont like to wait to slower shows. Those that DO choose to wait with me dont seem to mind since I do (attempt to) keep a fair rotation, and they seem to appreciate that. Problem is, when the rotations grow beyond 35 and 40, there is always that possibility that people arrive and dont get to sing, and that is what I am aiming to ensure I am handling correctly.

Your helping me with your experiences assures me that I am doing things the best possible way, and allows me to clearly communicate that to possibly disgruntled customers.

YES, when you get a list that big, you get a largely disproportionate bit of trouble with impatient singers, etc...

Jokers, in my opinion, the method you are using would not work for my crowd as there is a disparity in the "fairness" and it would be difficult to explain to customers, especially as the evening went on and the alcohol flows...

Wizard, your method is CLOSER to fair, but when the rotations go 30 or more, you will get complaints because people walking in and waiting only 5 or 6 singers and getting up will piss off the first singers who have been waiting 20-25 songs to get to the second song and are seeing these newbies getting in, and possibly even LEAVING before they get up again.

I have a hybrid method which seems to be working for me, but I am bringing this up here and at a karaoke forum I haunt to see what everyone elses opinion may be.

What is looking like the "fairest" method is the "list" instead of a rotation. This works like an amusement park ride line, you get back in line behind the last person waiting, and if riding for the first time, you are in line behind the last person who just got off...and if you are done riding, or get tired of waiting in line, you leave the line and the next person progresses.

Just reluctant to find the shows can get so crowded that it is possible for someone to come in at the half way mark and feasable NOT be able to sing at all. There are only so many minutes in an hour!

Keep the responses coming....

THANKS!

My method is totally fair I don't see any thing that makes it unfair....

I think most of us have slipped singers in... what this program does is not hardwired either.... you can turn the New Singer preference off if you like.... but what it does do assuming there is room for new singers is get those late comers in to the rotation to sing at least one song.... what it doesn't allow is johnny come late when there is no room for new singers or new requests from old singers....

See that's the part most KJ's find the hardest to understand... the program is doing automatically what we as KJ's do manually.... and since it does it for you there is no partiality.... on the flip side if a person knows this and enters a false identity it can be circumvented and it's up to the KJ to field that problem....

Trust me if it was unfair I wouldn't do it... but think of it this way.... you have singers in there that have already sung at least once and the bar still wants to make money if I turn to that new singer and say "well buddy you've got a long wait but I'll get ya in" just how long do you think that guy is gonna wait... not long.

But if I can say to him... "I'll fit you in within three singers" assumeing nobody has surpassed their max wait time.... "then, you'll be placed... ummm 30th in the next rotation" A singer equipped with this information is more likely to stick around....

However, for this to work your singers have to know that this is how your show is run.... you can't just go in one day and start doing it.... if explained right.... they will understand and the beuty of it is that by letting the computer handle it you take the human factor and mistakes out of the equation and you have a fair rotation that no one can blame favoritism on the part of the KJ since the computer is the one making the decision on where that new singer gets placed based on a set of variables defined prior to the show.

If that's not fair then I'm clueless.

Like I said the New Singer Priority is configurable all the way to turning it off.... then the program behaves as a first come first serve based on other normal rotation rules... as described in this thread by Wiz and others.... including you... it would actually do it exactly like you do now.

Well, this is all a lot more complicated than I ever imagined, but here is one thought of mine on all of this. If Karaoke starts at 8 and runs to 11 and folks come in at 8, I think they should sing more than someone that comes in at 10. If you walk in at 10 and there are already 20 song requests that have been submitted at about 3 minutes each, you aren't going to sing that night. If if they come up with a request you can let them know there are already 20 singers waiting and that takes us to the end of the night.

If they give me a tip, $5 or $20 or whatever, I will stick around at the end and they can sing a song or two, I have no problem with that at all. 3 hours at 16 to 20 songs per hour means 48 to 60 songs per night. First come, first served. Come up and sing a song, hand me another slip, it goes to the bottom, if there is time left in the night, they sing again later.

I don't think there is any more fair way to approach it. I'm going to try this system and see how it works. Some places I go to you can sing 4 or 5 songs per night because there aren't that many people there during the week.

Busy places with lots of singers, the people have to know they will only sing one or two songs that night and I believe you need to get on the mic as a good host and explain it so people know what to expect, that's not too hard to do and I plan on doing just that.

In my world. Singers have until the last song of the rotation is started to get a song in.

So if there were 28 people in rotation, and 10 people give me slips while #27 are singing #1 has to wait until these 10 new people sing.

It has only happened one time but I did once have a night were no one got to sing a second song.


I pride myself on higher sales for the bar. My rotations rarely get past 15 people anymore. I keep a good mix of music and karaoke so the non-singers stay and spend money.

In my area if you have a 30 person rotation they are generlly all karaoke people that don't have but a beer or two. My singers are the people with $100 bar tabs at the end of the night. It's hard to establish but when your goal is to get $1500 in bar sales in 4 hours you figure what works best for you.

First come first serve. Keeping in mind that the people who came early have also spent more money ( which is why we get hired). New people are put at the end of the rotation. No insertions.

In other words, if they happen to come in while the last singer is up- they're next. If I've started the next rotation, they have to wait until the end.

Except for the anchor singer, everyone follows the same singer who was before them. Besides being fair, it also precludes any "when am I up" questions from the regulars- they already know...

Almost anyone who sings karaoke knows that if you want more airtime, get there early- duh :sqerr:

What is this rotation thing and why does it exist?

You set your stuff up and wait for people to bring you their requests. Each one goes in in the order it was give to you. This goes on through the night until you are done. Why would you need any other way? I don't understand this rotation terminology.

What is this rotation thing and why does it exist?

You set your stuff up and wait for people to bring you their requests. Each one goes in in the order it was give to you. This goes on through the night until you are done. Why would you need any other way? I don't understand this rotation terminology.

That's pretty much the way I run it as well, but there are other ways. Some people will insert new singers say after say, every 4th old singer, or in the case of some Asian bars where bribery is expected ( this is how the host makes most of the pay in these types of places) the rotation is constantly changing. Some hosts will insert regulars in an order if they came late......there are many types of rotation. However, like you, I am first come/first serve.

If your rotation is 20 long and all through the rotation people are handing you slips and you are putting them in the order of when you received them and after #20 you start over with the second rotation of 20 people in the order they were handed to you, then how is a "rotation" any different than what I was saying? Is this the correct interpretation or is there something more complicated that I'm missing?

This rotation thing is just breaking the night into 3 or 4 segments as far as I can tell. Maybe that's easier for some KJs to handle instead of a steady stream from 1 to 60 and then the night is over. I'm trying to understand all of this...

What is this rotation thing and why does it exist?

You set your stuff up and wait for people to bring you their requests. Each one goes in in the order it was give to you. This goes on through the night until you are done. Why would you need any other way? I don't understand this rotation terminology.

There are as many ways to run it, fair and unfair, as there are hosts. A trained monkey can run a smaller rotation. When the rotations get large, consistantly, you really have to think things out a little more.

If you have 15 singers, sure, everyone will get to sing once an hour, 4 times in the night. When you have 30, 40 or 50 singers, sometimes there can be an illusion of impropriety, like when the early singers complain that they have waited over an hour and a half to get to the second song, and the people who just arrived 3 singers ago are already on stage. THAT hardly seems fair.

Like in my example, starting the show with 20 signups means that the first guy to sign up after the show starts at 8, wont get to sing until almost 9:30...an hour and a half wait. Is it fair that they guy who shows up at 10 gets to sing at 10:30 because his name was put on the list?

It is more of a problem at shows with consistantly huge rotations. On slow nights I never give it a thought...once you start breaking about 20 singers, it becomes apparant by itself.

I don't see how someone who shows up at 10 would get to sing at 10:30 when there are other people who have been waiting much longer to sing and who have already put in their request long before the late person even showed up?

If you show up at 10 and there are a lot of people there already waiting to sing who have already put in requests, then you shouldn't be able to sing that night if time runs out. The late person should go to the end of the line and wait just like anyone else.

If I was in the audience and I have been waiting an hour to sing and someone showed up who got to sing 20-30 minutes after walking in the door, I would leave and never come back. I don't see any fairness in that at all. If that's what a rotation is I would never use the rotation system.

I don't think you answered my questions from earlier.

This discussion is starting to be ridiculous to me. I don't know if we are going around in circles, saying the same thing, or something different?

Imagine people waiting in a physical line to get up to the stage. You wait at the back of the line to get to the front. When you get to the front of the line you go up. If when you are finished you hand a slip to the guy, it puts you at the back of the current line that is waiting to get up to the stage. What could be easier than that? Someone walks in at 9 they pick a song and hand it to the guy. They go to the end of the line that has been already submitted to the host.

Someone comes in at 9:30. They hand a slip to the guy and go to the end of the line of requests that have already been submitted.

When enough slips have been accumulated to consume the rest of the time left in the evening the night is closed and no more requests are accepted. It is logical to thin that if you come in at 8 you will sing more than someone that came in at 9:30. If there are 50 people who want to sing then most people will only sing once. Y'all can do it any way you want, this is how I am going to do it until I figure out a better or more fair way.

This discussion has helped me to think through and formulate how I'm going to do it, thanks fellas!

Well unfortunately, at this forum there is very little karaoke participation. At other forums where there are more host, I posted this and many hosts will always filter in new singers sooner than later...seems we all pretty much agree on how to keep things fair, but one has to determine if they are running a "rotation" or a list.

Many hosts running a bracketed rotation will put all new singers on before starting over (using sign up SLIP method)...some hosts put the new singer up before the singer who is on stage when they sign up (sign up sheet method). Other hosts just run it by the seat of their pants.

If there were 20 unique KJ responses here, you would more clearly see the controversy.

As to not answering your questions from before...I am not sure which ones you mean. If you are referring to post 24 ("What is this rotation thing and why does it exist?" and "You set your stuff up and wait for people to bring you their requests. Each one goes in in the order it was give to you. This goes on through the night until you are done. Why would you need any other way? I don't understand this rotation terminology.")

The rotation is the fluid list of singers...some use a list philosophy, others use a "bracketed" rotation (meaning they create a list of current singers, finish the list, then start a new list). Each can be used fairly, but it is more difficult at shows with large (15-20 or more) singer sign ups.

So when someone asks how many people are in the rotation, that means how many unique singers are there....and that is not the same answer as "how many til I am up", LOL!

This discussion is starting to be ridiculous to me. I don't know if we are going around in circles, saying the same thing, or something different?

Imagine people waiting in a physical line to get up to the stage. You wait at the back of the line to get to the front. When you get to the front of the line you go up. If when you are finished you hand a slip to the guy, it puts you at the back of the current line that is waiting to get up to the stage. What could be easier than that? Someone walks in at 9 they pick a song and hand it to the guy. They go to the end of the line that has been already submitted to the host.

Someone comes in at 9:30. They hand a slip to the guy and go to the end of the line of requests that have already been submitted.

When enough slips have been accumulated to consume the rest of the time left in the evening the night is closed and no more requests are accepted. It is logical to thin that if you come in at 8 you will sing more than someone that came in at 9:30. If there are 50 people who want to sing then most people will only sing once. Y'all can do it any way you want, this is how I am going to do it until I figure out a better or more fair way.

This discussion has helped me to think through and formulate how I'm going to do it, thanks fellas!

Dont think too hard, in my opinion, you are doing it right.

Ok. I think I understand what you're saying about filtering new singers as they show up. In a way I can understand(I don't agree, but I kind of understand), I'm sure the people who show up late that get to sing anyways really appreciate it, but I can't see how the people who have been there waiting to sing would like it at all. I won't do that.

I appreciate this discussion. Very useful to me. I spend time here at ODJT and over at the Karaoke Scene, that's it. I'd like to find other good boards and if you know of any that you think are worthwhile please PM me. Thanks

I still have a lot to learn, but nothing beats going out and doing it. Lots better than typing on a bulletin board. I expect to have some hosting jobs soon.
I'm in the St. Pete/Clearwater area of FL.

There are many many ways to run a show... each KJ is a little different... I don't think any one persons way of doing that has posted here is doing it wrong... quite the contrary... as long as you set a set of rules that you and your audience can abide by then stick to them... then you have a fair show.... regardless of how you handle new singers....

BTW if my show is running from 8-11 and a new singer rolls in at 10 if I'm not already sold out he/she should count themself lucky to get to sing at all. Most of the time on a busy night I sell out by 10pm.... so if your not there you don't sing but if you've got a song in you're gonna sing so stick around kidds it's gonna be a fun night!

Ok. I think I understand what you're saying about filtering new singers as they show up. In a way I can understand(I don't agree, but I kind of understand), I'm sure the people who show up late that get to sing anyways really appreciate it, but I can't see how the people who have been there waiting to sing would like it at all. I won't do that.

I appreciate this discussion. Very useful to me. I spend time here at ODJT and over at the Karaoke Scene, that's it. I'd like to find other good boards and if you know of any that you think are worthwhile please PM me. Thanks

I still have a lot to learn, but nothing beats going out and doing it. Lots better than typing on a bulletin board. I expect to have some hosting jobs soon.
I'm in the St. Pete/Clearwater area of FL.

You are right up the road from me...I am in DeLand and playing in the Daytona/Flagler markets.

To me we are pretty far away from each other. Tampa is about as far as I like to go and I don't even get over there much. I pretty much stay in Pinellas county from St. Pete to Palm Harbor. I get over to Spring Hill/Brooksville once in a while and on rare occasions the Sarasota area. Once in a blue moon I go to the Orlando area, but with the price of gas now, that isn't going to happen much.

Since I bought all this equipment, Karaoke disks and have spent so much time and effort on rehearsing my act, I really don't want to sing Karaoke any more. I want to get paid when I sing. I'll be happy whether I get hired to DJ, host Karaoke or do my singing act. As long as I get paid I'll be happy. I'd rather be entertaining than to be in the crowd.

I just wanted to illistrate how my rotations work... and what better way then to show you my screen shots.... bear in mind this is going to be very simplistic....

This first shot shows you Round 1 with our initial 5 singers
http://shup.com/Shup/35326/Auto-Round-1.bmp

This next screen is the Playlist View it shows several things:
Index = Singer position in current rotation
Singer Name = Singers Name... duh!
Song Title = The song they will sing
Repeat = Indicates if this will be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd... etc time a singer has sung.
Round = Current Round
Type = Indicates if the singer is Active or not... (note Toqer what other indicators are in this one?)
Wait Time = The all important column this is how you'll tell that PITA how long before they get to sing.
Est Time = is just that an estimated time before a person will be up to sing
Played? = Either Yes or No and only indicates if the singers song has been started or not...
Locked? = This indicates if a singer is locked in the position in the playlist or not... it basically means that if a new singer comes in he/she is safe and will remain 1,2, or 3rd in line to sing and can not be bumped... if a singer has reached a max wait time they also will be marked as Locked = Yes
http://shup.com/Shup/35327/Auto-Round-1-Playlist-View.bmp

Next is the Singer Rotation Screen
Index = Singers actual location in rotation (not to be confused with when they sing if new)
Singers Name = Duh!
Online Name = Name used via an online client not directly entered from the Song Entry view. (seldom used)
# Songs Sung = the number of songs a singer has sung this evening
# Songs in Que = if the singer has multiple songs already entered this will tell you how many are qued up to play
# songs entered = this indicates the number of songs a singer has entered to sing thus far in the evening it includes songs already sung.
http://shup.com/Shup/35328/Auto-Round-1-Singer-Rotation-View.bmp

Now you've seen the screens and you've got their descriptions let's see what happens in round 2 when a new singer enters the picture....

Below is Round 2 and Carolyn is our new singer...

http://shup.com/Shup/35329/Auto-Round-2.bmp

Round 2 Playlist view

http://shup.com/Shup/35330/Auto-Round-2-Playlist-View.bmp

Round 2 Despite what the Playlist view says Carolyn even though in Round 2 will sing 4th as you can see in the Rotation view she is actually going to be singer 6 in round 3.

http://shup.com/Shup/35332/Auto-Round-2-Rotation-View.bmp

Assuming in round 3 no new singers enter the rotation then from the above screen if all those singers enter a new song to sing that will be the order in which they sing....

Does that make better sense now?

Okay Im thinking I run a similiar run to Joes. This is the best example I can use to show my point. Say you have only 4 original singers but they put in 3 songs each andso you are stuck hearing them into the second rotation nearly back to back. If a singer comes in at the beginning of this second set I filter them into the end of that round (no.2)

Would you say its unfair cause those four had their third round song already in? What if five new singers showed up? Are you going to run a four singer 2nd and then 3rd round before you plant the new five singers in? I would put them into the current rotation at the end in order.

Okay Im thinking I run a similiar run to Joes. This is the best example I can use to show my point. Say you have only 4 original singers but they put in 3 songs each andso you are stuck hearing them into the second rotation nearly back to back. If a singer comes in at the beginning of this second set I filter them into the end of that round (no.2)

Would you say its unfair cause those four had their third round song already in? What if five new singers showed up? Are you going to run a four singer 2nd and then 3rd round before you plant the new five singers in?

Your scenario wouldn't happen in mine as I have a max singer request set to 2 this means a singer can only have two songs in the que and must sing one before being able to que a new one...

five singer's show up... ok

Simple say you have 5 singers who have already sung and are already qued for round 2 as in my above example....

The first three singers would be locked and could not be bumped by the 5 new singers... also since there is a Max wait time of 30 minutes set... any current singers in the que that have been waiting more than 30 minutes at the time of the 5 new singers being enqued are also safe from bumping down in round 2... chances are however in a 5 man rotation none will have been waiting more than 30 minutes at the exact time the new singers are entered... more than likely you'll get this result:

Jon
Toqer
Joker
new singer
new singer
new singer
new singer
new singer
Joe
Harryoke

But in the next round assumeing all of the newbies and our regulars enque a new song you'll get this:

Jon
Toqer
Joker
Joe
Harryoke
new singer - from previous
new singer - from previous
new singer - from previous
new singer - from previous
new singer - from previous

See the new singers now follow a regular rotation and fall in line where they would be if new singer priority was turned off.

Now fast forward this scenario with 20 singers in que that have already sung once and what happens is the 30 minute max wait time really takes over and locks those folks in position and the new singers will be interleaved around them or behind them so it all depends on how long an older singer has been waiting....

Believe me this not only gets the new guy in there but it also makes sure that our original singers have a fair chance to sing as well... also remember that if a singer is in the que with a song they will sing it, period.... no questions by the end of the night they will have sung all the songs they entered before sell out.

As I've said AutOK is completely flexible .... these are just the rules I use... if you want to institute a sing a song bring a song type rotation... so be it... limit singers to entering 1 song at a time and then they have to sing before they can enter a new song.... turn off the New Singer Priority option and you've got a get in line sing, get back in line sing again type rotation...

Make sense?

I follow joes route regardless of the size of the rotation. If it can be said, more importantly in my opinion each method will work as long as the regulars know you hold consistantly to your method. Newbies have a choice. As long as you dont bend the rules for the most part ever. It will be succesful. I do also use the duet method Joker uses. No duets and a solo effort to take place in same round. At times the guests will try and slip one by without putting the duet singer on the form if this occurs I automatically pull the solo card in that rotation. My rules are posted in my books and I also mention it freely throughout the night.

Jon's and everyone else's methods are possible with AutOK you just have to play with the settings until you get the desired results....

I have it dialed in for me....

If you want to dial in much more like a traditional Sing one, Bring one do as I posted just above jon..... max request 1 and no new singer priority... this forces a singer to sing a song before they can put a new one in and puts new singers to the back of the line based on rotation and say one of your regulars forgot to give you their next song and a newbie comes in the newbie gets bumped to their rightful place as last in line of the current rotation....

Make sense?

oh Great Harry stirs up the worms and leaves. As I said before consistency will allow any one of the mentioned methods to work. Fairness comes with consistency. Much like different world governments we all have an ideal and way we perceive as fair. Who really can say one is over the other except for when it concerns how we personally set up and run our shows. Regardless of method, if we are running succesful efforts thn its the right choice for us. Changing could send one in a downward spiral when success was already getting achieved. Implement change in tiny steps if it seems to be a better way in your situations. Otherwise keep it consistent.

oh Great Harry stirs up the worms and leaves. As I said before consistency will allow any one of the mentioned methods to work. Fairness comes with consistency. Much like different world governments we all have an ideal and way we perceive as fair. Who really can say one is over the other except for when it concerns how we personally set up and run our shows. Regardless of method, if we are running succesful efforts thn its the right choice for us. Changing could send one in a downward spiral when success was already getting achieved. Implement change in tiny steps if it seems to be a better way in your situations. Otherwise keep it consistent.

Agreed... it really doesn't matter how I or Joe or Wiz or Jon or Harryoke do it as long as how we do it is consistent as you say... and that our singers accept how we do it as fair... my rules are stated in the front of every book and I explain to new audiences how it works.... after all who reads manuals anyway.

thats why I also make announcements and enforce those rules when receiving a request if at all possible. Due diligence enforces the consistency.

I didnt leave, I swear, LOL!

I agree 100% on consistancy...with one caveat...

We must keep our eyes and ears open to see if anyone is balking or complaining about the way we do things, even if we are consistant in the way we do it.

Another observation...shows with small rotations do not have as "big a problem" with the concept of "fairness" as a show with a huge rotation. If you have 5 singers in the rotation, no one is gonna care if a newbie gets right in, or nor will a newbie care about waiting for an entire rotation to pass. When you get into wait times measured in hours instead of minutes, THAT is when your singers can and will get catty, and when you had better have a fair and consistant method of queing your singer, and be able to explain it to the impatient customer questioning you.

If no one is complaining, leaving your show mad or bending your ear, and your shows are as busy as you want them and not emptying early, chances are your method, whatever it is, is working.

If you want to improve your attendance, keep singers longer or pacify claims of unfairness, then it may be time to re-examine your policy.

That is what I have been doing...my system works, but just wanted to get feedback from the others. Fair rotation is KEY to succeeding in this biz!

I think one of these days I need to take a drive over to the east coast and visit a couple of your shows! I sure wish you weren't so far away.

I am out just about every night, so if you are ever thinking of being in the area just let me know. A show is only as good as the venue it is in, so obviously, some of my shows are much better than others.

All of my shows are just like everyone elses, only better. LOL. ;)

I follow joes route regardless of the size of the rotation. If it can be said, more importantly in my opinion each method will work as long as the regulars know you hold consistantly to your method. Newbies have a choice. As long as you dont bend the rules for the most part ever. It will be succesful. I do also use the duet method Joker uses. No duets and a solo effort to take place in same round. At times the guests will try and slip one by without putting the duet singer on the form if this occurs I automatically pull the solo card in that rotation. My rules are posted in my books and I also mention it freely throughout the night.



I use the same duet rule as Joker and Jon as well, though ya really have to keep a close eye on the slips- sneaky singers..:sqcool:


Hey Rob, how come I'm never first in your screen shot demos? I also noticed that it was me who got screwed when you inserted new singers! I don't get enough air time! I was there first! And I never sing "Hate Me!" Ya screwed up my song! Can my girlfriend sing first? She's really good and everybody wants to hear her but she's gotta leave soon! I'm really good friends with the owner, ya know. BTW, when am I up? :sqlaugh::rofl::sqlaugh:

....and I swear if anyone yowls Paradise I'm leaving!!!!