PCness

I would never say this to anybody in the DJ industry, especially to my clients or to my guests.

However, to anybody else, if I ever say, "Merry Christmas," and that person makes a stink about how I should not say that because it is offensive, "Because I don't believe in Christianity," then I would reply, "So, since you don't believe in it, you won't be offended when I say, 'Go to Hell.'"

Thanks for reading my story.

I don't like what Christmas has become anyway, but that's not the point.

:)

LOL,, I liked that and yes it would be cool to say that...

At the end of my "Holiday" parties I say " Mahalo for coming and no matter what Holiday you celebrate, I hope that you have a good one, Aloha!"

There is too much PC in this world, in my opinion.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas unless it's obvious that they don't celebrate Christmas. If that's the case, I say Happy Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, or whatever. A little acceptance/tolerance goes a long way.

Vinyl,

You've probably never been a minority. Sometimes an innocent greeting such as "Merry Christmas" is an instant reminder that the other person is is different. It may set off parasitic memories of times when their religious difference resulted in undo persecution. They may even be reading all sorts of negative things into your greeting such as; does the greeter think everyone living here should be Christian. Whatever the case, there are probably some very upsetting feelings going through their head. That's why they try to correct people. Unfortunately, they are probably thinking about all those unpleasant thoughts when they're doing this so it comes out pretty snotty.

I'm not condoning the attitude they send, I just understand it. Telling them to go to hell is just reinforcing their stereotypes of your stereotypes. (Did that make any sense?)

Personally, I am more offended by store people that say "Have a nice day" without making eye contact or smiling. They are like robots with a limited vocabulary. They are ingenuine in their greeting. People saying Merry Christmas are generally in good spirit. Their intention is generally just to share the good spirit.

I might suggest an alternate response that will make them feel like total heels. I don't have such a response in mind at this time, but I'm working on it.

I've had people tell me that my saying "Merry Christmas" to them offended them. I had one guy tell me in Atlantic City that I offended him when I said Grace.

To those people I say, "Will you get offended if I say I don't give a F***?"

The guy in Atlantic City got real upset about it. I said, "The United States is still a free country. If my freedom of speach and religion offend you, you are free to leave."

While I hate being all PC....... ( like you didn't know that already ).... I'm blowing it off if it is a client unless they are over the top about it. Maybe then I would respond.

My tagline over at DJChat says the "The essence of communication is intention". I wish more people understood this. I didn't until about 10 years ago.

Rarely does someone say Merry Christmas with ill intent. If you're Jewish or Muslim you don't have to make someone feel bad for trying to be nice. You can say, "Thanks. I'm (other religion), but I'll accept your greeting as an expression of good wishes for the new year. Merry Christmas to you."

Of course, I'll be speechless if I ever heard someone say that. I don't see a problem with a Jew, Muslim or Bhuddist wishing a Christian a Merry Christmas. I can't see how such a wish compromises one's own belief. It is just showing respect for someone else to practice their belief. But that's just me.

If I wish you a Merry Christmas it's because I believe and I am invoking my faith in order to bestow well wishes upon you. Whether or not you practice christianity is not important. The value of such a greeting is in the faith of the person who bestows it.

You don't have to believe in someone else's god, but you should believe in the sincerety of anyone who would invoke their god to address you. When a person of faith invokes their religion to wish you well - simply be grateful that anyone would care so much.

When a non-Christian wishes me Merry Christmas I understand that to be an acknowledgement of my faith, and that they trust me to do well with it. Likewise, I sacrifice nothing when I recognize and acknowledge the value of religious faith in others; even where that faith differs.

My tagline over at DJChat says the "The essence of communication is intention". I wish more people understood this. I didn't until about 10 years ago.

Rarely does someone say Merry Christmas with ill intent. If you're Jewish or Muslim you don't have to make someone feel bad for trying to be nice. You can say, "Thanks. I'm (other religion), but I'll accept your greeting as an expression of good wishes for the new year. Merry Christmas to you."

The idea of "intention" is a curious one. Specifically, the "intention" of those who would be politically correct.

Freedom of religion does not grant you freedom from religion. For the latter, you'll have to go to a planet where you can avoid contact with other people.

The essence of political correctness is not sensitivity. It is not about respect for minority ideas. Political correctness is an offensive form of incrementalism used to dismantle that which does not serve specific special interests.

Consider this:

Does the canning of Christmas encourage individual free expression or does it simply stifle the religious practice of Christians? Is this consistemt with freedom of religion?

If you look at the motivation behind many PC issues the "intent" is often quite malicious.

I wish it was possible to give multiple thanks!!!

I wish it was possible to give multiple thanks!!!

I threw one in for ya! :D

This has become a perennial issue. It arises every year. I still get a kick out of all the ink and newsprint that's expended by printing opinion after opinion on this topic. And it really isn't news... it's been going on for thousands of years.

Jon make a good point. Some practices have the ability to create fear in others. This serves to illustrate why there have been countless wars over the centuries.

I don't think it's PC to wish others a safe and enjoyable holiday season (my personal choice). If I know the person celebrates Christmas I'll wish him or her a Merry Christmas.

I don't celebrate Kwanzaa... but I have no issues with folks who do. My intent is to wish the best of the season, no matter what you may call it. :)

To respect the wishes of those who say grace before a meal is simply good manners. When we were pups growing up, we said grace before every meal. My father hated it but Mom insisted upon it. Later in years I came to understand her reasoning.

Good manners never go out of style. Respect for the practices and cultures of others is just one more way of raising one's personal bar. Besides, who are we to buck traditions that are thousands of years old?

The traditions and practices have stuck around for a reason. :)

But that's just one old dog's opinion, nothing more.

Vinyl,

You've probably never been a minority.

I am, but I am not a VISIBLE MINORITY.

Any further discussion would send my "Political INcorrectness" ratings through the roof.

I hear what you're saying, though.

Fred,

While we are in agreement over the greetings stuff, I see it a bit differently when it comes to saying grace. Perhaps it is a semantics issue though. The intent behind saying grace is a good one. We are just sanctifying an everyday task. Doing this separates us from our animal instincts. Every religion from Wiccan to Buddhism does this in some manner. However, the difference in manners creates the problem.

Most people saying grace begin it by asking people to pray in unison (bow your heads, join hands, etc). The prayer may then be said in such a way to single out (or perhaps, rule out) particular belief systems. This could be by refering to Jesus directly or just in how the higher power is referenced. Basically, people have been asked to pray in someone else's belief system. That is very awkward and it may fly directly in the face of one's own belief system (i.e. praying to a different god, prophet, etc.). IMHO, that is very different than simply extending a greeting.

In support of PC

Johnny, you evil beast. You started this thread and see where it has gone?.

If anyone took offense to my wishing them a Merry Christmas, I would inquire which part of wishing them merry offended them? I would assure them if it had been flag, arbor or groundhog day I would wish them merry on those occasions too.

The yuletide season is upon us and so are the annual rantings of O’Reilly and his ilk. The godless humanists are coming to take the Christ out of Christmas once again. Horror of horrors! Where? At that bastion of Christianity, Target, the heart and soul of Christmas spirit. A sub minority has their knickers in a knot and want to replace the Happy Christmas sign with a Happy Holidays one. A show of hands, how many of us has been admonished for wishing someone a Merry Christmas? Not only have I not ever been admonished, no one within my earshot has been admonished. Further, no one has ever conveyed to me, they experienced such an admonishment. This is a big country and a few instances where a few misguided bureaucrats go overboard does not constitute a cabal.

Since no one wishes to own up to it, I will. I attempt to be PC. To wit: I make a good faith effort to be cognizant of other’s sensibilities. Years ago this might have been simply regarded as tact and good manners. Today it carries sinister overtones of the Trojan Horse of Political Correctness. Warning, ulterior motives reside within that PC horse. No, the basic idea is be aware of other’s sensitivities. If the guy is wearing a yarmulke, and you can see a lit menorah would it kill anyone to wish the dude a Happy Hanukkah rather than Merry Christmas? That to me is being PC. To use offensive racial-ethnic-sexual slurs is to be non-PC. Can PC be carried to extremes? Yes, like O’Reilly can on his rants. Recently, Christian activists have had the temerity to claim they are politically oppressed, yet every American President has been Christian, all but one Protestant (JFK was Irish-Catholic). Yeah some anti-PC Protestants floated the possibility of the Papist (Kennedy) being controlled by the Pope in the Vatican. Around 1900, Catholics were depicted in political cartoons as alligators swimming onto these shores. The alligator’s jaws were drawn as the Pope’s miter. That might be seen as non-PC today. Not such a bad thing don’t ya think?

If I were being PC, I’d not point out that before Christmas was a Christian or more accurately a Catholic feast day, it was a pagan one. The winter solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The holiday, Saturnalia, honored the god of agriculture. Since this holiday offered the riff-raff (people like you and I) much merriment, gluttony and general bacchanal, the people of the time were not too keen on replacing a fun holiday with one that didn’t have as much appeal. Despite the fact, that Biblical scholars have determined Christ’s birth was closer to six months after Passover (September), in AD 350 Pope Julius I declared December 25th to be Christ’s birthday. Doesn’t that line up better with the winter solstice? Let’s note that the Catholic Pope is calling the shots for all Christianity as it will be another 1200 years before the Great Schism and Martin Luther nails his thesis to the church door (another good story that didn’t happen). To say the least, Pope Julius I was mindful that Christians were in the minority. Romans loved their holidays. Not taking away some of their favorite ones made conversion much more palatable. We won’t go into the stuff about circumcision. Easter too was pagan in origin.

The yule log, pine boughs, gift giving, Christmas trees were all pagan in origin. The yule, literally “wheel” was lit in honor of the sun, the wheel being symbolic of the sun. It was intended to encourage the sun’s return. Oh, you say Protestants don’t believe it was pagan in origin? Nope, Protestant sects (Puritans) banned christmas due to the links with the pagan past. Just like some Protestant sects ban dancing today. Just like some Muslim sects ban dancing and music and fun in general.

I can understand the fundamentalist Christian aversion to things PC as in my personal experience, they have precious little regard for the sensitivities of persons of science, other faiths or atheists. As evidence of this may I briefly explain? The complete denial of the cosmic, geologic and biologic record regarding the age of the cosmos, the earth and human origins. I have experienced being told that I’m not a Christian as I was raised a Catholic. Yes, I responded, and Christ wasn’t a Jew. They looked confused. Fundamentalists reserve the highest disdain for atheists. The argument is made (heard with my own ears and heard again in print and broadcast media) that since you (the recipient of the argument) did not believe in a god there was nothing to keep you from murder and pillage. They had to be less moral than their god-fearing counterpart. For the record, persons with advanced degrees are more likely to be atheist by a wide margin over their less educated brothers. Contrary to popular belief, atheists commit less crime, take up less prison space and commit murder less often.

If I were being PC, I’d not mention that the overwhelming numbers of souls (I use the term loosely) are of the same religion as their parents. These thinkers, these persons of great faith, simply accept the faith of their parents. On the whole there is no quest for the answer to the great question. We accept the answer our parents accepted almost universally. There is always the rare exception but for more than 98 percent of us this is true.

I believe there is something commendable in an effort to be moderately PC. What do you think? For myself I’ll continue to wish persons, Merry Christmas, godspeed, Happy May Day or whatever other salutation might best fit the recipient. Life is too short to worry about such things. Merry Christmas! No. Not yet, it is too early. As I explained to a bank teller (Christmas decorations were up Nov. 1), Christmas for one-twelfth the year is sufficient. Christmas for one-sixth of the year is ridiculous.

Have a nice day!

Thanks, guys.

This is a cool thread.

:thumbsup:

I have never personally experienced this, but I am prepared, for people in my life have experienced this.

The best story (told in FIRST person):

I went to pay for my Christmas gifts and, after I paid, I said, "Merry Christmas."

She said nothing.

I asked, "Don't you like being told to have a MERRY CHRISTMAS?"

"We're not allowed to say that," replied the teller.

So I asked for my money back and went to shop somewhere else.

I dug that. But my point was not so much to say GO TO HELL. My point was that people wish to be PC (which is bad enough), but only when it suits them.

Double standards are everywhere, but this note was to bring us all into the Christmas spirit.

:thumbsup:

Balanced,

Great post!

You've also added a whole new dimension to the PC debate; early holiday celebration. Just like you aren't supposed to wear white after Labor Day, I don't think you should be able to hang Christmas decorations until after Thanksgiving. It ought to be a law. My neighbor put his lights up last week when the temps were near 90. Of course, we'll let Gretchen Wilson keep her Christmas lights on the front porch all year long because she's an avowed redneck woman. ;)

I'ts not so much that it is offensive to wish a Jewish person, or someone who celebrates any other Hoilday, but it just goes on to remind them that their Holiday doesn't grow longer every year.

So they are mad. :)

Chuck, you are a marvel for finding the humor in almost any topic.

Since I've donned my PC hat, may I point out that you most likely meant to say they [Jews] are angry not mad?

Even Lewis Black, a Jew as well as a very funny guy pointed out their holiday sucked in comparison as they didn't get nearly as much really neat stuff. A dreidel? That sux in comparison to the Christmas tree and the other neat stuff.

To the more serious folks, may I say that none of this is meant to demean the true intent of the holiday whether practiced in a secular or religious manner.

If the guy is wearing a yarmulke, and you can see a lit menorah would it kill anyone to wish the dude a Happy Hanukkah rather than Merry Christmas?

You seem to be confused on the difference between Political correctness and common sense.

When a Christian store owner is publicly criticized for a banner that includes the word "Christmas" that is political correctness.

The difference between your personal approach and that of a beaurocrat is that the beaurocrat's opinion has the potential to become law, or carry some other civil or economic penalty.

To wish a happy holiday to a person you know does not celebrate that holiday is just stupid. But to be told to keep your mouth shut just in case you unknowingly bump into a non-Christian celebrant - is offensive.

To wish a happy holiday to a person you know does not celebrate that holiday is just stupid. But to be told to keep your mouth shut just in case you unknowingly bump into a non-Christian celebrant - is offensive.


I disagree. Up until a few weeks ago I would have agreed with you.

My day job as a mailman puts me in contact with many people each day. In December I always wish the customers "Happy Holidays" when I leave thier house. I don't know what they celebrate so I try to play it safe.

Last year I even did a holiday party for a local hospital. There were MANY people who, for lack of a better word, were Indian. I'm not exactly what country they were from. The head person from the department of the hospital made a speech about how a great year it was, etc... He ended the speech with something like "I'm sick and tired of all this PC stuff. This is NOT a holiday party, it's a CHRISTMAS party! and many people clapped.

This started the ball rolling for me. I couldn't believe he was saying this in front of many people who I ASSUME were not Christian, simply judging by their culture. This has stayed with me and a few weeks ago reared it's head again at school.

I am currently taking teaching classes at college and a few weeks ago my professor spoke about this very matter. He pretty much said that we are not allowed to celebrate ANY holiday in school. Sure, Christmas dominates but there are many people who don't celebrate Christmas. Jews don't celebrate, yet they get bombarded with Christmas. Radio plays Christmas songs 24/7 starting Turkey Day. Stores have Christmas decorations. TV has Christmas shows. Jewish children must get an inferiority complex with all this.

It doesn't stop there. What about St. Patrick's Day? Think back to when you were in kindergarten. The teacher would show flash cards with a bunch of symbols. Every picture on each card was the same with the exception of one. There was ALWAYS a 4 leaf clover associated with this game. Even a desk of cards has a clover. What's the symbol of St. Patrick's Day? A CLOVER! Any kid who is NOT Irish must get an inferiority complex. They see that Irish kids have not only St. Patirick's Day but that clovers are all over their world and they see them on a dailiy basis. The same goes for Christmas trees. Just like a clover is on these cards, there's always a Christmas tree too reminding non Christians about just how "uncool" their religion really is.

I use Indian below to classify Native Americans.

What about Colombus Day? Teachers have students create Indian head dresses with feathers and have the "pilgrims" and "indians" sit down and eat together. OK, but what you're NOT teaching these kids is that just a few short years later the children of the pilgrims desimated the indians. The pilgrims and indians didn't get along well because the white people were KILLING the indians for their land. So, go back to today and you're a little boy who is half or a quarter indian. How are YOU supposed to feel about Colombus Day?

So what are you gonna say? Are you gonna say "To Hell with that one little indian boy? 99.9 of us are not Indian so let's celebrate Colombus Day anyway!" How does this make the little boy feel?

What about birthdays? Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT celebrate ANYTHING. No birthdays, no holidays, nothing. How are you supposed to celebrate a birthday in class with a Jehevoah's witness child? The child CAN NOT partake in the celebration. Is it fair to have his motehr pick him up right before the celebration? How is the kid supposed to feel knowing that his friends are having a party that he can't attend. Doesn't that make him feel inadequate?

Even if you don't want to celebrate holidays at school, you can't even TEACh the holdays. You can't just teach the students about Christmas. You would have to teach the students about EVERY holiday in EVERY culture. Who has time for that? If you DON'T teach about EVERY holiday in EVERY culture then the students will see THEIR holidays as SUPERIOR to other holidays in other cultures. Is this right?

I feel that many people who say "to hell with them, I'm gonna wish everyone a Merry Christmas.......etc...." have never been on the other end.

I wonder how these same people feel about spanish immigrants. Do you get offended if a spanish person tries to talk to you. Do you get offended by seeing spanish words on the products you buy? I find that many people who dislike the immigrants are anti PC. Don't the immigrants have the same rights as you? Do you attempt to learn spanish? There's no national language in the US so the immigrants have every right to speak spanish. They don't HAVE to learn English. It's beneficial to them to learn but they don't HAVE to learn. Do you bother with them or do you brush them aside?

I find that many people who dislike the immigrants are anti PC.

Just for the RECORD, I do not dislike immigrants.

I dislike the concept of RESPECTING EVERYBODY'S BACKGROUND = REFRAINING FROM CELEBRATING YOUR OWN

For fearing the risk of "excluding" somebody or making somebody feel "inferior", we end up exluding everybody and everything. That's wrong.

You cannot teach EVERY SINGLE holiday. You also cannot teach EVERY SINGLE fact in the universe. Those are not reasons to be ignorant.

Just for the RECORD, I do not dislike immigrants.

I dislike the concept of RESPECTING EVERYBODY'S BACKGROUND = REFRAINING FROM CELEBRATING YOUR OWN

For fearing the risk of "excluding" somebody or making somebody feel "inferior", we end up exluding everybody and everything. That's wrong.

You cannot teach EVERY SINGLE holiday. You also cannot teach EVERY SINGLE fact in the universe. Those are not reasons to be ignorant.

I'm not saying do not celebrate your own beliefs. I'm talking about a classroom setting. Children should not be taught the holidays because why pick and choose what holidays you celebrate? Where do you draw the line?

Years ago we were taught to sit Indian style. Do kids today know what that means? No. Today kids are taught criss cross applesauce to sit down. By saying Indian style you are telling the children that all indians sit that way all the time. Stereotyping.

I just have 2 statements to make.



1) Your Freedoms end when they begin to infringe upon someone else. Expecting a non Christian to be happy when you say Merry Christmas is wrong, even if you had no ill will and did not know their background. Put yourself in their shoes. This time of year is DOMINATED by Christmas. EVERYTHING is Christmas. Stores sell Christmas decorations, play Christmas music, and decorated in red and green and even have Santa outside. Radio stations play Christmas songs. TV has Christmas shows and specials. Imagine you're a non Christian and just want to go shopping. You drive in your car and Christmas music is on the radio. You walk into the store and are greeted by Santa. You get in the store and Christmas music is non stop over the radio there. The store is decorated in red and green with lights and trees. You get to the checkout counter and the cashier wishes you a Merry Christmas. I would be SICK of it. And at this point I'm aupposed to accept the "Merry Christmas" from the cashier as a sign of caring?

2) The bottom line is that you need to have empathy. Put yourself and THEIR shoes and see how it feels. I can't stress it enough, EMPATHY!

Empathy goes as far as the original values the country you were born in pronounced in the declaration, the bill of rights etc etc. I might need to dig up the Australian letter from their Head Cheese to say this correctly. More to come later.

Empathy goes as far as the original values the country you were born in pronounced in the declaration, the bill of rights etc etc. I might need to dig up the Australian letter from their Head Cheese to say this correctly. More to come later.


LEt's go back to my holiday party from last year. Remember, there were many "Indian" people meaning Southeast Asia. I ASSUME a lot were not Christian and you could tell a few were immigrants.

They come to America looking for a better life free from persecution. They go to school and land a job at the hospital as doctors, nurses, staff, etc... They go to the company holiday party and the director says "This is not a holiday party. I'm fed up with this PC bullsh*t! This is a CHRISTMAS party!!!"

How are the immigrants supposed to feel? They came here looking for an escape and freedom and this is what they get from theior bosses?

I guarantee you that many Christians are offended by Christmas.

Empathy I think should go the "other" way, at least sometimes. I am not offended if, say, somebody wishes me a HAPPY RAMADAN or BUDDAH DAY.

//

Ever heard of the term, "Blocking", in spontaneous acting? Actor A shouts, "A plane is crashing!" Actor B, rather than reacting to it, says, "No, it's not." Actor B just Blocked Actor A.

//

Instead of everybody having "empathy" for Mr. Ramadan Celebrater or Mr. Buddah Man, and respecting the fact that they want to spread their concept of "love", we show "empathy" by just neglecting EVERYBODY'S views--or, "Blocking".

LEt's go back to my holiday party from last year. Remember, there were many "Indian" people meaning Southeast Asia. I ASSUME a lot were not Christian and you could tell a few were immigrants.

They come to America looking for a better life free from persecution. They go to school and land a job at the hospital as doctors, nurses, staff, etc... They go to the company holiday party and the director says "This is not a holiday party. I'm fed up with this PC bull****! This is a CHRISTMAS party!!!"

How are the immigrants supposed to feel? They came here looking for an escape and freedom and this is what they get from theior bosses?

First of all, whether you like it or not, everybody except Natives are immigrants.

How are the Christians supposed to feel?

If it were a Chinese New Year's party, I am certain that The Honky Tonk Man is not going to SHAKE RATTLE AND ROLL some Chinese immigrant because he is not taking CHRISTIANS into account. It's an F'N Chinese New Year's party!

they left a country or culture behind for a number of reasons and mostly cause it wasnt the kind of life they wanted to live any longer. Perhaps coming to this country with its solid foundations they must consider they will need to accept tradition and foundation when adapting and settling in. Bringing ones own ways and making The US or Canada in my case an extension of that previous culture is a bit unfair as well. OF course bring your heritage but dont cry oh but we take the third Friday of each month off for prayer and we must have jelly donuts supplied by the employer tuesdays and wednesdays and on Thursdays the Employer must provide transportation to and from work as its a tradition in our country to give our cars a rest on Thursdays.

"and we must have jelly donuts supplied by the employer tuesdays and wednesdays"

I want to work there.... donuts...ummmmmmmmmmmm....

and we are very close to stepping on each other here... take a breath... have a jelly donut...

and we are very close to stepping on each other here... take a breath... have a jelly donut...

Johnny walks up to Chuck...

Squeezes donut...

Chuck cries in agony because now jelly is stuck to his eyeballs.

:boxing:

OK...I won't ever tell anybody to go to Hell...well, I will, but just at the same frequency as I always have.

:p

I took my shoes off as it is a Japanese custom and Im also smiling.

sitting here cross legged, middle finger and thumbs touching going...... auhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I have been to Japan, Thailand and India and asked to participate in Shinto, Buddhist and Hindu customs. It would have been rude of me to say no. Watching me go through their motions was a very uplifiting experience for my hosts. To me, they were just motions. I enjoyed doing them because it made them happy. I did not see this as being forced to assimilate. Of course I was just a guest. However, if I were an ex-patriot, it would be no different. Of course, others would see that differently and that's sad.

An orthodox rabbi (the black hat type) moved down the block from me a few years ago. He is very friendly and talks to everyone. He will shake the hand of a man but not of a woman. When he first met us, my wife stuck her hand out to shake his. He did not return the gesture? Was he rude? Was my wife rude? Should my wife be banned from offering her hand to a stranger because it might be offensive? BS! The rabbi was very gracious about the incident. He smiled at her. Recognized her custom and politely told her that he didn't mean to be rude but his beliefs prohibits him from touching a woman other than his wife. He was so nice about it my wife felt bad for not knowing his customs and he reassured her that he wasn't offended. I thought this was handled quite nicely. You can't help but liking the guy. BTW, my wife thinks that rule is absolutely looney but she respects that others follow this.

There was a problem in NY a few years ago between Asians & Blacks I believe. I'm not sure what caused the rift, but I assume the blacks were unhappy with the influx of Asians. I can't recall now.

Anyway, a black woman was shopping and went to the cashier, an Asian man. When the man made cahnge he placed it on the counter for the woman instead of putting the change in her hand. The black woman was so offended because she believed the asain man didn't put the change in her hand because he didn't even want to TOUCH her.

I believe this started a whole big riot a few years ago. As it turns out, it was customary for the Asian man to place the change on the counter instead of placing it in the hand. That's just the way of his culture.

Remember a few years ago when I believe Bush Sr. visited I believe Australia. He gave the standard 2 finger peace sign to a bunch of Aussies. As it turns out this sign has the same meaning as our middle finger to the Aussies. Could you imagine Mikhail Gorbechev visiting the USA in 1985 and giving the middle finger to us because he thought it meant peace. Geez, that Cold War would have turned hot real fast.

if I ever say, "Merry Christmas," and that person makes a stink

The rabbi was very gracious about the incident.

Key Words

He gave the standard 2 finger peace sign to a bunch of Aussies. As it turns out this sign has the same meaning as our middle finger to the Aussies.

Somebody is obviously ill-prepared for the scale of politics in which he participates. Is the above example supposed to justify the need to NOT teach children about other cultures (for fear of "exclusion" or "inferiority")?



Get me some refill for my donut! :p

Thank you, Jon. :)

Folks, I served a stint in the US Navy. The Navy loves to take thousands of American pups to foreign shores and dump us on the locals. :D

I can't recall all the countries I've visited. But there is one thing I recall well: when in Rome, do as the Romans. Remember, when visiting a foreign country, YOU are the minority. It's a humbling experience, trust me. It's an educational experience as well.

America was built by immigrants. The most powerful country in the world was constructed piece by piece by people who were not born here. I don't think it's too much to ask that their cultures be respected.

Today we're dealing with 4th, 5th and 6th generations who are interested in their cultural roots. There ain't nothing wrong with that. And no one in his right mind is gonna read you the riot act for saying "Merry Christmas" in America.

Christmas in America today is not what Christmas in America was in 1956. All the retail hype and whatnot is just that ~ hype. It's there to make a dollar. Nowadays it's a year-end celebration where the factories close and people are free to visit and spend time with their families.

The term "Christmas" is simply a tradition.

Your Freedoms end when they begin to infringe upon someone else. Expecting a non Christian to be happy when you say Merry Christmas is wrong, even if you had no ill will and did not know their background. Put yourself in their shoes. This time of year is DOMINATED by Christmas. EVERYTHING is Christmas. Stores sell Christmas decorations, play Christmas music, and decorated in red and green and even have Santa outside. Radio stations play Christmas songs. TV has Christmas shows and specials. Imagine you're a non Christian and just want to go shopping. You drive in your car and Christmas music is on the radio. You walk into the store and are greeted by Santa. You get in the store and Christmas music is non stop over the radio there. The store is decorated in red and green with lights and trees. You get to the checkout counter and the cashier wishes you a Merry Christmas. I would be SICK of it. And at this point I'm aupposed to accept the "Merry Christmas" from the cashier as a sign of caring?

2) The bottom line is that you need to have empathy. Put yourself and THEIR shoes and see how it feels. I can't stress it enough, EMPATHY!


That's just dumb.

Your Freedoms end when they begin to infringe upon someone else.

WRONG!

Your rights may be abridged where they infringe upon someone elses rights. Rights in conflict is what the legal system is for.

Empathy is not a right.

If the world were as you prescribe: what of the poor Christian kid who lives in a society dominated by Christianity - yet he can't get a simple friggin' Christmas tune played on the radio? What of the poor station owner who has to ignore the majority of his audience and play stuff that doesn't attract advertising dollars?

Empathy? Are you for real? LOL

Then again, maybe you're right. Everytime I go to Paris I get annoyed that no one there has the courtesy to speak English!

...Remember a few years ago when I believe Bush Sr. visited I believe Australia. He gave the standard 2 finger peace sign to a bunch of Aussies. As it turns out this sign has the same meaning as our middle finger to the Aussies. Could you imagine Mikhail Gorbechev visiting the USA in 1985 and giving the middle finger to us because he thought it meant peace. Geez, that Cold War would have turned hot real fast.

There isn't complete agreement on this but the most satisfying answer I've found on this question explains it dates back to Agincourt in 1415. Up until Agincourt the armored knight pretty much owned the battlefield. Owning a full set of armor during these times might be roughly compared to owning your own Lear Jet today. Henry V made it mandatory for young men to practice their skill at the bow to the extent of outlawing other sports. The longbow turned out the be the TOW anti-armor weapon of its day. The flower of French youth died on the field that day. It was one of the most lopsided victories in history.

Before the battle the French threatened to cut off the bow fingers of every archer. When what remainded of French nobility was being paraded in captivity the bowman presented two extended fingers and the back of the hand to the now hostage nobles and knights, indicating that although the fighting is over we still have the fingers to draw our bow. The implied message is "up yours".

The V for victory turns the hand around for the palm to face outward. All pictures of Winston flashing the famous hand gesture will have the palm outward (unless he was trying to indicate an all together different message).

You seem to be confused on the difference between Political correctness and common sense.

No. I am the very model of lucid thought and crystalline logic. You wish to impose your definitions on the argument. You wish to define what things mean and what they mean not. I don’t accept your definitions, just as you have not accepted mine.

Freedom of religion does not grant you freedom from religion. For the latter, you'll have to go to a planet where you can avoid contact with other people.

When a Christian store owner is publicly criticized for a banner that includes the word "Christmas" that is political correctness.

In the first case, it is agreed people have their right to freedom of religion. In the second case, do you believe that person in your hypothetical, who criticized the sign should not have their freedom of speech? It may not be polite and I don’t think this is at all PC but none the less it is their right to say it no matter how unpleasant. This is the same rights the Evangelist shares when seeking new converts. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.



You seem to be confused
That's just dumb.
WRONG!
Empathy? Are you for real? LOL



Most everyone, especially Basic seems to making a case for empathy, consideration for others and general tolerance for other viewpoints. Like it or not, the time when Caucasians will not be in the majority is on the horizon. Any white not interested in minority rights today may be interested when that time comes. Performance, I simply do not share your viewpoint. Religion is on myriad TV and radio channels 24 hours a day. Evangelists go door to door without fear of religious persecution. Every single federal elected official proclaims a belief in God yet the odds a this being true are almost non existent. Yet somehow those practicing their faith are at risk? The shoe seems to be on the other foot.

This debate about Christmas being taken away or subverted has been made three times in the last hundred years. In the 1920's Henry Ford wrote a virulent piece of propaganda called “The International Jew”. It was widely disseminated in this country. It made the claim that Christmas was being subverted by the Jews. In the 1950's, the John Birch Society made the claim that Christmas was being subverted by Godless Communists. The language was so extreme that even Barry Goldwater (not known to lean to the left or have Communist sympathies) had to distance himself from the rhetoric. In the new century, the blame comes back to the godless but this time it is the humanists. There was no threat then and there is no threat now to Christmas or anyone’s expression of their faith.

I’ve not seen any persuasive arguments here that theism is at any risk at all. When trying to determine why this non-issue is being raised yet again, the Wizard of Oz comes to mind. Pay no heed to the man behind the curtain (pulling the levers furiously)!

Many many years ago I was doing a reception when the Bride, who was dancing close to where I was setup) sneezed. I instinctivly said "bless you" (not giving it another thought).
I got my ARSE ripped for the next couple of minutes on how DARE I force my religion on her during "Her Day" and that I should keep my religious s**t to myself!
Beleive me....I don't do that anymore.
Too many people are getting just too touchy about PCness. If it doesn't fit "your" beliefs....so be it. Let it go. But don't jump all over me when I say "Merry Christmas".
If you don't celebrate as I do, in your own mind, change it to whatever you DO celebrate and accept it as a wishing of joy.

Lighten up people. :)

Many many years ago I was doing a reception when the Bride, who was dancing close to where I was setup) sneezed. I instinctivly said "bless you" (not giving it another thought).
I got my ARSE ripped for the next couple of minutes on how DARE I force my religion on her during "Her Day" and that I should keep my religious s**t to myself!
Beleive me....I don't do that anymore.
Too many people are getting just too touchy about PCness. If it doesn't fit "your" beliefs....so be it. Let it go. But don't jump all over me when I say "Merry Christmas".
If you don't celebrate as I do, in your own mind, change it to whatever you DO celebrate and accept it as a wishing of joy.

Lighten up people. :)

AMEN! :p

You know, this reminds me of the fact that, for probably longer than I ever knew of "gay" people, I have always said, "THAT'S GAY," when something is "REALLY LAME."

Did I learn "gay" from people who were againsts "gays"? I dunno. Do I refer to "gays" when I say it? Absolutely not. Do you believe that, when I say, "Gay," I have an image of a cheesy cartoon where funny looking cave people run through the house, not moving there arms, and running past the same sets of furniture over and over?

It is not my fault that cultural phenomena changed the definition of a word that I like to use. And I am actually PRETTY SURE that I did, in fact, learn it from the Flintstones. Justin Timberlake? Gay! Is he homosexual? I dunno, and I don't care. His songs are gay.

Cultural Phenomena. I feel REALLY bad for the makers of the AIDS diet chocolates. They were in business before the disease, but they sure were off the market in a hurry, do to something that was absolutely not their fault.

B-dy B-dy B-dy...that's all folks!

It must be a northern thing, because most of this political correctness doesn't seem to fly over to well with the true Texans (Wait is that a stereotype, oops)

My mother grew up in NYC in the '30s and '40s. Back then each ethnic group had their own neighborhood and people rarely mixed. She lived near a German neighborhood where nazis walked the streets (pre outbreak of war) and all the associated anti-semitism and bigotry was rampant. People were beaten, couldn't get jobs, lost jobs, etc, just for their beliefs. We have moved a long way from that time. The fact that we can complain about a well meaning "bless you" or "Merry Christmas" shows us how insignificant our problems really are.

People that want to live in a world without the potential to be offended should simply put themselves into a coma.

BTW, my mother grew up where a common compliment "That's mighty white of you" was common. She didn't have any clue that this comment had racial origins. No one uses that term today for that reason. I think the same can be said about Vinyl's expression for lameness. Just because you don't understand the root of the expression, it doesn't mean it is PC. Likewise, when one is offended by such an expression, they shouldn't immediately assume there was such malice meant by it. There are friendly ways to deal with that.

http://www1.hellocrazy.com/reserved/cards/200411141208030.niceday.jpg

Thanks, Jon.

My Mom grew up in Upstate NY around the same time. 40 years after the war she still feared Hitler and what he stood for. She could never bring herself to speak of it. Mom grew up on a farm during the Depression. Much of what people knew of the war was what they heard on radio. Radio was a very powerful medium then.

After WWII ended, many newly unemployed German soldiers took their families to America to start over. Germany had been completely destroyed and there was no way to earn a living.

To be sure, there were ethnic neighborhoods in PA, NJ and NY. There were German, Irish, Italian... and they didn't mix much in those days.

The reality is Christmas has become a holiday in the U.S. I have plenty of Jewish freinds that celebrate christmas as a holiday and Hanuka as a HOLY event.
Every country has their own holidays and i would gladly join in them if i was there.
I have never been offended when someone wished me a happy hanuka, or a happy anything for that matter.
I need to be tolerant of other's cultures, not avoiding my own culture for fear of offending. While I don't want to be intentionally rude, If I spend all of my time concerned about how i say something might offend someone, i will never be able to learn about our differences.
If i went to a party, and they said, this is a Kwanza party, i would not be offended. Whoever is throwing the party can call it whatever they want.

If someone told me they were offended by a warm well intended greeting i gave them, i would apologize and walk away. That is not a person i would like to spend my valuable time with.

Some of the arguments in this thread, alone, are evidence as to why it's practical to be PC, as unforunate as it is.

I always say Happy Holidays so that I can avoid any uncomfortable situations.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Woah - NOT SO FAST ROX.

Happy Thanksgiving first. Just a couple more days. That's a good holiday too. I haven't eaten any turkey yet!

I wanted to get it in before post Thanksgiving sales began!

on the second thought, I've never been to happy by people saying "happy turkey day" I've caught myself saying it a few times, just doesn't rub me over real well. Seems like your focusing on the turkey and not the thanking.

Merry Christmas everyone.

now I'm offended!:sqwink:

now I'm offended!:sqwink:

At least he didn't say Merry Xmas. I hate that.

...I've never been to happy by people saying "happy turkey day" I've caught myself saying it a few times, just doesn't rub me over real well.


Bounce, maybe you didn't use butter?

Margarine may be PC... but it takes the real thing rubbed on a gobbler for the real flavor. :D

Margarine's gay.

Margarine's gay. no remember PC, its lesbian

Yeah . . . there is way to much PC these days . . .

Matter of fact . . . I've got 5 or 6 old PC's still sitting around out in the garage! :sqwink:

"but it takes the real thing rubbed on a gobbler for the real flavor"

is that what you kids are calling it these days? a Gobbler? :)

Pour a little red wine in there with the turkey,,, heelps make the gravy yummy and gives a nice zest to the meal...