I Could Get A Live Band For That

After I had landed my last wedding, that is, the client had signed the contract and had paid me the retainer in cash, we were chatting.

She told me about some of the prices she had come across and she indicated that for those that were $1,000 or more she could get a live band for the same price. She wanted to know how they justify themselves charging "such outrageous prices".

Now, of course I already had this one in the bag and I could have shruged and told her that they weren't worth the price, but, here's what I did say:

I told her that as far as bands were concerned, they have a limited repetoir of music and most take breaks every 20 minutes or so. DJs carry large collections that contain the original artists and DJs don't take breaks, or, at least their music doesn't.

As to the pricing, I did explain that some DJs are full-time and they need to make a liveable wage. And, I honestly do salute the full-time DJ for being able to do this.

She then asked why the full-time DJs couldn't just take on more events so that they can lower their prices to something more reasonable? I tried to explain that there are only a limited number of days in the year, a limited number of clients avaialable, and doing multiple events on one day in different locations is a scheduling nightmare. But, I kind of lost that argument.

How would you explain it if somebody told you as a full-time DJ that you could lower your rates and get more work?

BMW could make a $10,000 car like Kia does and sell millions of them. But would BMW still have the reputation for quality they've worked so hard for?

I always say that.

I was going to the say the same thing except I was going to use Mercedes as an example.

I might have said, "Gee, and after all those years of making a nice wage charging what I did, NOW you come along and tell me it was all wrong!"

Turn it back on them. Tell them that they'd get more hours at work if they'd only work for less per hour, then they could work longer shifts and make more money!

Most will question your rates, due to the fact that if you are they event by yourself as a DJ/MC they come up with the question why should I pay so much for just one person working. They just won't understand.

It's pretty similar in the medical field. The prices hospitals charge for test is outrageous. The profit margins are huge. But in Mexico when it comes to labs and medical tests you do get what you pay for. The variations in results is so big lawyers would have a field day in malpractice lawsuits.

The funny thing is that people with money are the ones that complain more often. People in the lower economic spectrum struggle but try to get correct results the first time around.

You'll always hear people complaining about pricing. Maybe they're not the right client to do business with.

I would like to stick up for the Bands a bit...as I was a professional FT musician/leader for many many years before becoming a DJ.

I think that you will find a number of DJ's that have been in this business for awhile, were previouly musicians. I learned my trade as to how to run weddings, corporate, parties etc. as a Band leader. It's a big mistake to underestimate the announcing talents, the ability to run a job etc. of many of the band leaders out there. There are many that are just as talented in this area as any DJ/MC. Many of the higher end bands do choreography, wear custom outfits, are very inter-active, have dancers, and come in with killer light shows and sound systems.

They also provide a keyboard player, duo or trio for live music for the ceremony at the venue and the cocktail hour.

Most bands work 40 on and 20 off as a basic package. You can also book them to play continuous, provide less musicians during the bands break or as many do...provide a DJ for the bands breaks.

Just like a high end DJ...these bands demand top dollar and get it.

Can we just all come to an agreement to drop the whole full time/part time arguement. It's a farce, especially when it comes to defending price. Price should be based on several others factors and not simply because you are full time or part time. In my area there are part timers who charge $1200 and are keeping busy and there are full timers who charge $800 and are also keeping busy. The value is not in their employment status, it's in their service.

Honestly...I'm over this whole PT/FT thing. Can we just let it go? It really is beating a dead horse and goes nowhere. At least in some of the other pointless (because they are subjective) discussions about rates or 12 inch speakers or mac vs PC or even wireless mics, I have always come away with some new piece of knowledge. I have never learned anything from any discussion about FT vs PT. Here's a question to prove my point...a full time multi-op who employes part time DJs, how does he fall into the equation? Sure he is providing full time service and availability to the client, but the DJ...the one who ultimately is responsible for the success or failure of the event only has a part time commitment. It is impossible to truly define full or part time in this industry. I know guys with full time non-DJ jobs who still put in an additional full time commitment to their "part time" DJ job. Sell service and quality...not how many hours you put in.

Our DJ Talk is supposed to be different...a better place. So how about a ban on discussions about full or part time DJ's? Please...I'm begging ya...for the love of god...

How would you explain it if somebody told you as a full-time DJ that you could lower your rates and get more work?
Well, if you follow that line of thinkin' I'd have even less time with my family than I do now but I'd have no more income to show for it.

I'm working hard enough as it is, thanks very much. :)

How would you explain it if somebody told you as a full-time DJ that you could lower your rates and get more work?


I would tell them their right, however the DJ in question has to be compatible with the "other" work that's available.

You can't get "other work" unless you have the "other skills" and talent that makes you attractive for those jobs.

Many DJs have no other unique talent or skill that can bridge the gap into other related applications of DJ work.

Many great weddig DJs suck at other events, so they only get "referred" to work one day a week on Saturday - the mother of all wedding days.

Some DJs don't have the music depth to handle certain events outside their niche.

Well, if you follow that line of thinkin' I'd have even less time with my family than I do now but I'd have no more income to show for it.


Fred, what about your line of thinking? :sqconfused:

I can get $800 for a wedding on Saturday, but I can get $4,500 for a trade show on Monday.

Who says that just because you lower your wedding rate that all that "other work" has to be lower too?

Fred, what about your line of thinking? :sqconfused:

I can get $800 for a wedding on Saturday, but I can get $4,500 for a trade show on Monday.

Who says that just because you lower your wedding rate that all that "other work" has to be lower too?
I was thinkin' if I lower rates to close more bookings, I'd be working harder (and away from home more often) to bring in the same pound of bacon... if that makes any sense. Other sources of income can be just as fickle. Everyone seems to be trying to squeeze a nickel these days. Managers don't run their businesses anymore ~ the stock market does it for them. :(

If I could get eight for a wedding around these parts, I'd gladly do it. It happens but it doesn't happen as often as I'd prefer. I'm not in the position to get fourty-five for a tradeshow, unfortunately. :)

I wasn't thinking so much about "you" Fred, as I was the "lines of thinking" :
..lower your rates and get more work...

As I said, not all work is the same, and that makes it possible (if you can) to serve more than one dish.

The smarter not harder argument seems to rest in a monolithic service based on just a single client or event type - all banking on one day of the week.

How would you explain it if somebody told you as a full-time DJ that you could lower your rates and get more work?

I'd explain how flexible I am, lower my rates, and get more work :sqbiggrin:

I had an ego in a galaxy far, far away -- but somehow, it found it's way into the vanity closet .)


Honestly,

I think the whole idea that you have to explain yourself, is a joke unto yourself.

If yer good at what you do, and love yer job -- there is no limit to how high you can go, how many gigs you can get, and whatever price suits yer fancy.

Look at it this way: If you're making a decent wage for the effort put forth, and you can do as good (if not better job) than a live band, then you have no need to explain anything -- people will hire you without even meeting you. Your reputation as an entertainer, will precede you.

LOVE YOUR JOB (or find one you do)! You will never have to explain anything :sqbiggrin:

Tom,

I think it would be more interesting for to hear why a DJ isn't worth $1,000+ from the clients perspective.

One rule: They can't say "because the other DJ's cheaper".


Cover bands in the early 80's routinely would book out for $800-$1,200 for weddings & proms.

Decent cover bands that are in demand today are worth $2,000-$10,000.

The person in your example is equating value to what??

A $1,000 cover band is more inept at their valuation than most DJs.




Seriously delve into the clients mind when they balk at price.

I spent 45 mins speaking with a bride on Friday that had initially bought into the idea of price first. She asked me directly why we were $500 more than another company in town. I told "because we are worth it"...I followed up that statement with: "Every owner admits what they are worth in their price. We aren't $500 more...the other guys are worth $500 less."

After the initial objection was overcome she began asking more wedding related questions and we settled on 3hr for $200 more than the other companys offer of 6hrs at a lesser fee.

Dude,

I saved you for a bit, you owe me ;)


So, here's me hypo question to you (and you know I hate worth threads):

Consider me a potential client, who doesn't like to waste time with salesman type people (and that would be true).


What do you bring to my event, that a live band, or another DJ can't?

And, how can you prove that to me without a lot of BS'ing?

We'll start off with easy questions...


Do you have a video showing you in action at major events?
Can you guarantee that you personally, will be my DJ?

What do you bring to my event, that a live band, or another DJ can't?


20+ years of personal industry experience and reputation.




We'll start off with easy questions...

Do you have a video showing you in action at major events?


Yes. We have photos and video. However, highlights reels only show the best highpoints of an event. Orchestrating those successes are based on what your specific needs are.


Can you guarantee that you personally, will be my DJ?


Yes, for an appropriate fee and within reason. i.e. hospitalization

If for any unforeseen event, I would be unable to personally handle your event, any consideration paid for my contracted personal appearance would be refunded and a qualified replacement would be provided to guarantee that your event would not be abandoned.

...we settled on 3hr for $200 more than the other companys offer of 6hrs...

Don't blame me Dude, Rick is the one who said I should go back to arguing with you. :sqwink:

I did not miss your distinction on 3hrs vs 6hrs, but for $300 less than my original quote I would not do something like this. It would have too be a perfect fit for some awkward 3 hour hole in the schedule.

Each potential wedding day breaks out into three common day-parts:
morning, evening, or cross-over.

Each block has the potential for at least a 5 hour event. Any event less than that will close the DJ's schedule for the entire block, and possibly all three.

So the length of the event is not really that important too me. I care more about which schedule blocks are affected. Hence, a crossover costs more than either a morning or evening, because it eliminates both.

Bob,

Thank would be $200 less not $300.

3hr events are quite common for our company to initially book.

Uniquely, 7 out of 10 events extend their length at our hourly rate.

So let's recap...

Already exceeded production costs...
Have the contracted latitude for upsells at the music meeting...
Also have the contracted latitude to extend the contract at the event...

What you choose to do is your deal...

I see an acceptable and calculated risk for my business model.


Bob, two questions...

Are you a single or multi-op?

How many millions has your specific DJ company raised since inception (don't include your a/v rentals)?


Savvy?

Can we just all come to an agreement to drop the whole full time/part time argument. It's a farce, especially when it comes to defending price. Price should be based on several others factors and not simply because you are full time or part time. In my area there are part timers who charge $1200 and are keeping busy and there are full timers who charge $800 and are also keeping busy. The value is not in their employment status, it's in their service.

I totally agree here. Full time/ part time has nothing to do with it. People cannot even agree on what the definition of full time/part time is.

tom,
I don't think you meant to, but saying the REASON full time people charge more is because they have to is a real slam against full time DJ's. What you are saying is every part time DJ can run a more efficient business model because hiring a full time DJ always means someone will have to pay more than they should JUST because they hired a full time DJ. Same service, you are just getting screwed because the guy needs to pay for insurance and other things.

Saying full time DJ's charge more because they have to is the same as saying part time dj's charge less because they are worth less. I simply don't believe either statement is correct.

our pricing is based on what people are willing to pay for similar service elsewhere. It's designed to keep us as busy as we want to be. I am always looking at ways to adjust it to make it more efficient, but being full time/part time has NEVER been a factor in pricing consideration.

As I've said before, everyone has different financial responsibilities, needs, and wants, and should run their business the way they want. I dont think it's productive or beneficial for me to tell customers that the REASON other companies charge different prices is because they have to...I have NO idea what they HAVE to charge. I try to focus on the benefits of going with us...not trying to tell the customer why they DONT want to go elsewhere.

I don't agree with full timers slamming part timers....and i don't agree with part timers slamming full timers. It makes us look less professional and petty.

Now it's a duel of cash registers?

Dude, if you're so damn wealthy why are you so damn mad?

$500 - $200 = $300 less than your original quote. (But you could have figured that out if you actually read the post.)

Bob...,

I'll give the remedial version.

The competitions 6hr package & my 6hr item for item price were $500 apart.

The client chose our 3hr service at a price $200 more than the competitions 6hr package.

As per usual, you focus on what want...not on the "what is". Hence...myopic!



Now it's a duel of cash registers?


Nope...

However, interesting that you'd go there first.

My question is valid. Based upon your views that should be related to your success...how financially successful are you?



Dude, if you're so damn wealthy why are you so damn mad?


I find myself asking the same question about you.

Mad...? More or less vehemently curious at how people willfully undervalue themselves...when their potential is so much greater.

That...and my willingness to defend my pursuit of happiness...and my willingness to "share" with those going in the same general direction.

What sensible person would aspire to be a homeless bum...?

You argue against a persons singular abilities & views.

I argue for greater reward for everyone's abilities.

Whose the real the team player here...??

Oh for the love of God, would you two knock it off?

Jeez, Louise! Enough already.

My question is valid. Based upon your views that should be related to your success...how financially successful are you?

Well, that's pretty easy to find out, unless of course you expect to find the answer at the CDC. :sqlaugh:

Dude, Zip up.

It's all relative. Your space on 12th St sits adjacent to a neighborhood where the median home price is $112,000. If anything, that's what sets the limit on how much you can charge.

Boston and New York are NOT the Dakotas.

Bob,

Congrats on finding my office building.

Too bad it's 23miles from my home. I'm tiring of the commute and thinking of selling the 2,500sq ft building and the 20,000sq ft lot it sits on.

Seeing as there has been a substantial commerical building boom in the neighborhood.

That...and the fact that it is located one long city block from the FargoDome. One of largest facilities in ND.

Bet yer' "investigation" didn't turn that up.


Ya missed yer target again! But keep trying...you're bound to lucky sooner or later.

Oh...BTW, MDJs...are "mobile" so I can drive to higher or lower income areas... Imagine that...!

I'd like to imagine you guys kissin' and makin' up... or agreeing to disagree at least.

But I'm not laying any heavy wagers on that happening anytime soon. :D

Lay your bets now Fred, This is my last post. I'm taking a permanent vacation from anything DJ "guru" related.

Location, Location, Location.

You'tre taking it a little too personal Dude.



Fargo has a city population around 95,000 and a metro region of about 180,000 people.

Boston is the 11th largest metro region in the country with about 4 1/2 million people (only about 600,000 in the city).

The median income of city dwellers is not that different in Boston than in Fargo (~$35k - $39k). But we have 6 times the population and the range of incomes is much wider than in Fargo.

11% of Fargo residents are considered in "poverty" while in Boston it is 20% We have twice the poverty rate, but it is offset because our rich are richer. You can find more millionaires here, because there's more of everybody here.

The population density of Boston is also 5 times that of Fargo - so we can travel 5 times less to serve people.

BUT WAIT !!! - When you leave Boston for the metro region the median incomes in many communities go up. And....at 4.5 million we have 25 times more people in our immediate metro area than in Fargo.

It also costs a lot more to live here, but with a market 25 times wider and larger than yours we have a far better chance of getting our rate.

Race to zero .....in your dreams!

Fred...it would be a sucker bet!


It also costs a lot more to live here, but with a market 25 times wider and larger than yours we have a far better chance of getting our rate.

Race to zero .....in your dreams!

Bob, thank for offering the other side of the coin...that supports my point.

Your ballpark populations are close.

If one looked at all population within 1hr commute of the Fargo- Moorhead metro area we would be closer to 260,000. However, population wise...you're fairly close.

I have no issue that your market is wider & larger within a smaller geographic area.

I have no issue that your market provides greater possibility of getting your rate.

With the admitted market diversity...the race to zero applies.

No question, the cost of living is higher in your area. That should relate to higher MDJ prices on the average across the general MDJ population. Yet, the ability for a MDJ to self sustain, self perpetuate,....cover their own health insurance needs basically all related expenses in the following example without a second job appears to not be the norm.

Example based on arbitrary $50,000 income: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/movecalc.asp?a=0&d1=50000&d2=92.712270133844&d3=135.431609747707


http://www.discjockeynews.com/dudescorner/pics/costs.jpg



So why is it that rates are not "on average" 46.08% percent higher in your area?

I would argue devaluation...

Devaluation from what???

Increased competition, shrinking marriage numbers, entertainment price abatements, blind ignorance of actual operational costs...essentially the race to zero.

Dude : That's a superb chart. Very compelling argument for regional differences yet relational sameness in outcome "if".

Could you do one and add Albany, NY and New York City, NY?

How would you explain it if somebody told you as a full-time DJ that you could lower your rates and get more work?


I wouldn't. Why would anybody want to work more for the same money?

Cover bands in the early 80's routinely would book out for $800-$1,200 for weddings & proms.

Decent cover bands that are in demand today are worth $2,000-$10,000.


Not in all markets Brother...

A decent cover band here can be had for $400 to $500

Jeff:

How DARE you question Dude Walker?

Shame on you. Don't you know who he is?!?!

Cover bands in the early 80's routinely would book out for $800-$1,200 for weddings & proms.

Decent cover bands that are in demand today are worth $2,000-$10,000.


Not in all markets Brother...

A decent cover band here can be had for $400 to $500


Jeff, that sucks...!

Congrats on the little one BTW!

There's no doubt that there are cover bands trying to compete on price just like MDJs...

Yet another example of the race to zero...

If these bands were TRULY in demand...you'd think that they could command a better rate.

Something must be holding them back...? :dontknow:




How DARE you question Dude Walker?

Shame on you. Don't you know who he is?!?!


Funny guy...! Taunts??? OMG, you REALLY ARE that immature. :nono:

I guess as an "advertiser" you have full reign to violate the suggested TOS... :wtf:



Cap,

To address your request from earlier. Here are two comparisons. Getting a solid on Albany with the detail wasn't available through the link in the earlier post.

I chose the closest community possible...which was Glen Falls, NY. Wasn't sure which comparison would be best with Glen Falls, NY. Manhattan or Queens so I did both. I hope these examples answer the questions that you have.


Comparison basis $50,000 income.

Glen Falls, NY vs "Queens" New York, NY
http://www.discjockeynews.com/dudescorner/pics/ny1.jpg

Glen Falls, NY vs "Manhattan" New York, NY
http://www.discjockeynews.com/dudescorner/pics/ny2.jpg

... I guess as an "advertiser" you have full reign to violate the suggested TOS...To be honest, Dude, no. Sponsors are under the same rules as the rest of us. Our TOS apply to everyone from the site owner down to the newest member.

Fred,

Thank you for being straight.

It just appears that John's recent fixations are for his personal amusement.

It just appears that John's recent fixations are for his personal amusement.
Ummm....now who's making personal attacks? :nono:

Dude : Thank you for digging into and providing that chart. I'm blessed to have a successful operation in my region that allows life to be lived very comfortably here, but would no doubt be a real struggle in NYC and/or Manhattan if I maintained my price levels that are levied here.

It also evokes a deep empathy for those mobile DJs in metro areas that not only must try to personally survive but have countless and endless wannabees to off-sell to do it.

Thank God I'm a (pseudo) country boy by comparison.

It just appears that John's recent fixations are for his personal amusement.

Ummm....now who's making personal attacks? :nono:


John, thank you for "yet" another example of your fixation. :BangHead:





It also evokes a deep empathy for those mobile DJs in metro areas that not only must try to personally survive but have countless and endless wannabees to off-sell to do it.


Cap, that is probably the most astute observation...that many refuse make.

Ignorance of operational costs is sad...it and of itself.

Ignorance of the "costs" related to personal survival is even worse.

But hey..., that empty feeling in one's stomach can be filled with that good feeling of FUN...having the opportunity to DJ for someone...right? :dontknow:

The social cost and cost to family dynamics in a desperate ploy to be chosen...not matter what the cost...is too high. Society today, sadly, reinforces that philosophy.

The true "heat in the kitchen" is higher prices for most. The catalyst...those weak enough to pander to the lowest common denominator as their standard M/O. Those that defend a lower price are the one's truly incapable of "handling the heating in the kitchen". That's the rapacious part...

Apparently, doing more events for a lower rate is just a more palatable form of greed...? Ironic, how "just getting by" for many...is a form of greed. Perhaps the allure is the justification...?

If it's any help I've tried the lower cost for more work scenario. Seemed that other DJ companies were undercutting me so I figured two can play that game...

This was one of those times when I should have considered the consequences of my actions. :eek:

To be certain, I got more shows, many of which were ball-busting loads that most DJs wouldn't have touched. Out in the hot sun, up on somebody's deck or patio. Up stairs in cheap, ratty, rented venues that I never knew existed. Got rained on, struggled with icy sidewalks etc.

Was doing two, three or more shows per weekend. Some Saturdays I left one show to drive to another.

Come the end of the month I was no further ahead as far as the bank balance went. I was beating myself to death, putting more miles on the truck and cleaning mud and dirt off the speaker cabs... but I had no more gross income to show for it. My overhead had increased due to the additional work.

That had to come to a stop. The phone was still ringing but I couldn't keep saying "Yes" every time a prospect called. I went back to stating my regular rate and the backbreaking shows receded to a trickle.

On the other hand, the upscale shows stayed steady. At the end of the month the bank balance hadn't suffered, even though net income had dropped slightly.

In re the Boston-Fargo Comparison Chart: Using my "Back-End Principle", If you switched from Ibuprofen to Sodium Naproxen you'd save a bundle. The cost of the generics is approximately the same tablet per tablet, but you only use one Sodium Naproxen to every two Ibuprofen.... and considering what you're going to put in that Kleenex, why not use drug store generics at 99 cents?......um, just trying to feel involved, ya know?......:sqrolleyes:

Joe, fair enough.

However, the sampling group used their own survey questions. Outta my hands.

The pennies do add up...however the biggest ticket items still run the show.

The calendar has a finite number of days in a year. Most markets experience seasonal demands.

There is a finite potential for any given entity. Which is affected by many factors.

There's nothing wrong with being cost effective. As long is it's not at the expense of wages. That's the tricky part... make it too cost effective...and you might end up looking cheezy and cheap.

If it's any help I've tried the lower cost for more work scenario. Seemed that other DJ companies were undercutting me so I figured two can play that game...

This was one of those times when I should have considered the consequences of my actions. :eek:

To be certain, I got more shows, many of which were ball-busting loads that most DJs wouldn't have touched. Out in the hot sun, up on somebody's deck or patio. Up stairs in cheap, ratty, rented venues that I never knew existed. Got rained on, struggled with icy sidewalks etc.

Was doing two, three or more shows per weekend. Some Saturdays I left one show to drive to another.

Come the end of the month I was no further ahead as far as the bank balance went. I was beating myself to death, putting more miles on the truck and cleaning mud and dirt off the speaker cabs... but I had no more gross income to show for it. My overhead had increased due to the additional work.

That had to come to a stop. The phone was still ringing but I couldn't keep saying "Yes" every time a prospect called. I went back to stating my regular rate and the backbreaking shows receded to a trickle.

On the other hand, the upscale shows stayed steady. At the end of the month the bank balance hadn't suffered, even though net income had dropped slightly.

I feel very fortunate in that I "DJ" for the mere enjoyment of it.......My hats off to those who are doing this for a living.....it's tough.

One thing I have done when pricing a job is to respect my competitors in my area, and I maintain rates commensurate with the rates in my area.

DJ Gray,

Not being combative...just looking for clarification.

"Commensurate"...can be a loosely used term.

Not to disclose your price...on a scale of 1-10. 1 being the lowest...10 being the highest...where would you fall commensurately?

Also, where would your market average be on the same scale of 1-10?

Actually, it's been said that when disclosing price, one commiserates to consummate a commensurate commission comparable to the conditions of the climate acceptable to the co-inhabitants of the contractual conception.

On a scale of 1 to 10, that is.

But John, that depends on how you pronounce "consummate".

DJ Gray:

This may seem heartless, but I could care less about my competition because they are just that, competition. If they fail it is no concern of mine.

Now there are some companies that I work with that I will not compete against. When a prospective client calls and I find that they have received a quote from that company, I simply tell them that I recommend that company and will not compete against them.

My prices are based on my cost of production plus a profit margin.

How do you determine your cost of production in a service oriented profession? I'd could be a smart azz and say ask Dude Walker, but, here's the way I do it.

1. Set an hourly rate I want to make for my time (travel, set up, strike, performance, meetings, and so on). Multiply this by the average hours per event.
2. Add up all the expenses and divide by the average number of events to be performed. Those expenses also should include the labor cost of any assistants/roadies you use.
3. Add 1 & 2.

Of course, this is just a rough estimate. I have data going back to 2001 (that should impress Dude) that gives me per event breakdowns. Hard data is the basis for good estimation of cost.

1) Joe, fair enough.

However, the sampling group used their own survey questions. Outta my hands.

The pennies do add up...however the biggest ticket items still run the show.

2) The calendar has a finite number of days in a year. Most markets experience seasonal demands.

There is a finite potential for any given entity. Which is affected by many factors.

3) There's nothing wrong with being cost effective. As long is it's not at the expense of wages. That's the tricky part... make it too cost effective...and you might end up looking cheezy and cheap.


1) Um, Dude,....My samples and statement were supposed to be a touch of humor, in hopes of easing some thread tension....guess that's why I'm not a comedian.........


2) I have posted similarly elswhere. This is the reason one MUST have specific profit margins in mind.


3) to re-iterate other posts of mine: The Back-End Principle doesn't really mean buying lower quality. It means buying the HIGHEST quality at the best price. My favorite example is a Shure microphone that goes for around 100.00 retail. If you do just little work, 80.oo on line. BUT, if you actually do some THINKING, you find that Shure has done private label manufacturing. In this particular example, they made the exact same microphone for-believe it or not- Radio Shack. Their price: around 40.oo. No compromise of quality at all, just a massive savings for that item.

The Back-End Principle is simply learning to THINK before you BUY. That means long term costs as well as the initial investment. Also, buying what you NEED, not just what makes you happy. This is a BUSINESS principle. You bought that 20,000 watt amp/speaker setup so you can play ANYWHERE, right? You're all prepared- terrific. Except maybe all you are playing at the moment are parties or venues of around 150 or less. So while you are waiting for those BIG venues to roll in, you're using more fuel, causing more wear and tear on a body that's aging every moment, as well as wear and tear and depreciating value on the equipment itself. The longer this goes on,the more work you'll have to do to make your purchase cost effective ( that's assuming you start booking venues of a size to actually NEED this setup in the first place). So "being prepared", in this case, is being OVER-prepared, and NOT cost effective...

.....and that's just the tip of the iceberg. You can, if a thinker, add a huge percentage to your profit margin without having to raise your fees a penny. All this and maintain high quality in both reality AND appearance.

OK, outta breath........:sqeek:

DJ Gray,

Not being combative...just looking for clarification.

"Commensurate"...can be a loosely used term.

Not to disclose your price...on a scale of 1-10. 1 being the lowest...10 being the highest...where would you fall commensurately?

Also, where would your market average be on the same scale of 1-10?

Market would be about a 7, my rates 6-7. Again I don't do weddings, so what I compare to are Corporates, Anniversary Parties, Birthday Parties etc.....

I still recon that a type of price breakdown to show a rough (not the correct prices of course) that could be shown why we need to charge so much

I'll start (as what we have to pay in Australia)

PPCA Fees: $255.00 a year
Apra Fees: $120.00 a year
Banking fees: $120.00 a year
Music: (cd buys) $400.00 a month (as most cd's here are about average 25.00+ a CD) you cant buy much in one hit... especially new releases

ok lets keep it to what they would ask why they could get a band for what you buy and charge that - see if bands can justify thier costs...

DJ Gray:

This may seem heartless, but I could care less about my competition because they are just that, competition. If they fail it is no concern of mine.

Now there are some companies that I work with that I will not compete against. When a prospective client calls and I find that they have received a quote from that company, I simply tell them that I recommend that company and will not compete against them.

My prices are based on my cost of production plus a profit margin.

How do you determine your cost of production in a service oriented profession? I'd could be a smart azz and say ask Dude Walker, but, here's the way I do it.

1. Set an hourly rate I want to make for my time (travel, set up, strike, performance, meetings, and so on). Multiply this by the average hours per event.
2. Add up all the expenses and divide by the average number of events to be performed. Those expenses also should include the labor cost of any assistants/roadies you use.
3. Add 1 & 2.

Of course, this is just a rough estimate. I have data going back to 2001 (that should impress Dude) that gives me per event breakdowns. Hard data is the basis for good estimation of cost.

I'm in a different situation....I'm not trying to make a living as a "DJ", however a lot of you are, and out of respect for that, and respect for the profession, I won't undercut rates to do business.

I still want to cover costs, and not make this a drain on my other assets.

I set a Hourly rate, and minimum charge per gig.....these are based on incurred costs.......

I'm in a different situation....I'm not trying to make a living as a "DJ", however a lot of you are, and out of respect for that, and respect for the profession, I won't undercut rates to do business.

I still want to cover costs, and not make this a drain on my other assets.

I set a Hourly rate, and minimum charge per gig.....these are based on incurred costs.......

DJ Gray,

Thank you for subscribing to a business-like approach to DJing.

I'd like to call you a kindred spirit...

However, out of respect for you I'll just give you a nod! :notworthy:

I'm in a different situation....I'm not trying to make a living as a "DJ", however a lot of you are, and out of respect for that, and respect for the profession, I won't undercut rates to do business. rly rate, and minimum charge per gig.....these are based on incurred costs.......
And therein lies the heart of the matter.

DJs who have day jobs have the luxury of sticking to their price and if they don't get it, they still have income from their day jobs.

DJs who are trying to make DJing their full-time occupation still have the same types of overhead as the DJ with the day job, but takes a greater risk at losing precious income if they aren't willing to be flexible.

It's one thing to stick to your guns on principle, it's quite another to have an open date pass you by with no work all because you weren't willing to be flexible to work with the customer to get the gig and bring in the income you need.

Were I still DJing with a full-time day job, I'd be the most expensive DJ in the market. Since I made the decision to go full-time, I needed to maximize every opportunity for income, for once that day passes and you didn't work, you have no way of ever earning income for that day and that can and will have an impact on one's cash flow.

Jeez, I didn't want to turn this into another FT/PT debate, but I hope everyone can see the logic behind what I'm trying to say.

Guaranteed income with a day job makes it easier to hold out for a certain price, whereas it is much riskier for the person who, without that gig, makes no money for the week.

Self-employment. Do whatever it takes within the bounds of the law to maintain positive cash flow.

I am going to throw one more slant on this in.

A few weeks ago I worked with a photographer that had to be one of the easiest to work with and one of the most professional photographers I have met. First of all, she bothered to bring along the agenda I had e-mailed her; most don't.

At dinner we had a chance to talk and pricing was one of the conversations. She said that her philosophy was that everybody deserves to have a professional photographer for their wedding and if she has to, she will cut to the bone to help make that happen. She said that as long as she gets the items they wanted paid for, her expenses are met, and she can walk away with a small profit, she's happy. I asked her how the other photogra[hers felt about that and she said, "Screw 'em. If they can't make it then they need to find another line of work."

I saw the finished product Sunday. I would rank the quality very high.

Guaranteed income with a day job makes it easier to hold out for a certain price, whereas it is much riskier for the person who, without that gig, makes no money for the week.


And when they "day jobbers" lack the spine or business sense to hold out?

You've offered a valid example of potential...

And YET!


"Screw 'em. If they can't make it then they need to find another line of work."


Thank you for a prime example of the greed, "NOT CAPITALISM", that is destroying the economy...

Yet another example of the "Race To Zero"...

The squandering of an industry...one vanity placation at a time...

She said that her philosophy was that everybody deserves to have a professional photographer for their wedding and if she has to, she will cut to the bone to help make that happen. She said that as long as she gets the items they wanted paid for, her expenses are met, and she can walk away with a small profit, she's happy. I asked her how the other photogra[hers felt about that and she said, "Screw 'em. If they can't make it then they need to find another line of work."

I saw the finished product Sunday. I would rank the quality very high.

Thank you for a prime example of the greed, "NOT CAPITALISM", that is destroying the economy...

Yet another example of the "Race To Zero"...

The squandering of an industry...one vanity placation at a time...

Apparently youi suffer from selective reading Dude.

This lady offers one of the lowest prices in the area but also offers the highest quality. She has set her goal at providing a quality product at an affordable price and will stoop to the sin of lowering her price but not her standards to help her client. This is not greed.

I agree with her philosophy. I know what it costs to do the job. I know the profit margin I want to make. Sorry, but like Gray, I am not doing it to make a living but I am also not going to soak my clients just to meet some fictional value others have set. Besides, isn't price fixing against the law?

DJs in my area that want to make a full time career out of DJing simply must prove their value to the client but they'd rather whine instead. OK, here's some cheese to go along with that whine; now go away.

Honestly, you did teach me one thing; make the prospective client show proof of a lower offer. If the other guy is willing to put it all in writing, I am available, and I can affordably do it for a lower price, I will.

I enjoy DJing and working with people. I have a great time at every event I do and so do my clients and their guests.

I forgot what this thread was about...


Oh wait -- I'd hire the band -- they argue less than DJs :sqlaugh: :sqlaugh: :sqlaugh:

Tom,

No selective reading.

This is the defineable fence that we are on opposing sides of.

Profit margin is the key and also the fork in the road.

Autonomous operation for nearly all other "profitable businesses" is the goal...not the fringe benefit.

Most small businesses fail to support an autonomous operation...let alone...liveable wages.

You've openly admitted the "screw em" mentality to justify lower rates.

You've offered up anectotal hearsay in search of support for your philosphy.

The specific quote that you posted...and that I used are the essence of the problem.

The "screw em" mentality devalues the industry... because these entities devalue themselves with the "screw em" mentality.

You've openly admitted the "screw em" mentality to justify lower rates.

No, I'm openly admitting the "screw em" mentality because I now could care less what the other DJs around here charge.

You're big on production costs; well, I get mine plus a profit margin. The business is sustainable and will remain such as long as I keep tabs on costs.

My only gripe are those around me that tell me to raise my rates, not for the betterment of the "industry" but for their own good because they can't justify their prices. My statement to them now is, don't worry about me. Worry about yourself.

Could I charge $1,200 and get it every single time? I have in the past based on add-ons and I have a package like that still. If I were taking all that stuff to events then I'd be charging $1,200 every time and be able to justify it. But my schtick is simple, no frills weddings that are planned and executed well. No need to charge $1,200 for that.

Tom,

Production Costs...Profit Margin = Semantics at this point.

Take any MDJ...anywhere in the nation...

Cost of living may vary...

Legit business costs may vary...

However, each has a general average.

Ask two MDJs...they may be at opposite ends of the spectrum...

Ask 100 MDJs...you may get a general sense of an average production cost...

Ask 10,000 MDJs... you get a fairly consitent average.

It is that "average" production cost that is at the center of most debates.

These "averages" formulate a price that MDJs espouse to the masses.

It is these "averages" that most try to sell below.

The masses that have very little understanding of real value as opposed to monetary savings in seach of the lowest price.

Price leaders are always "followed". The lower the price leader goes...the lower the followers go. Usually at the expense of wages.

Too many MDJs...slinging too much BS...about legit business ops they don't comprehend. Too many convenient & creative bookkeeping practices that prevent any real sense of production costs to formulate.

That failure to quantify real production costs perpetuates a false sense of valuation on the business and client side.

One example of several:

There are MDJ that pay cash off the cuff to staff that should be under payroll. Willfully avoiding SSI, FUTA, Workers Comp & State Unemployment is not a mark of ethical business practices...

I would save thousands each year by "cuttting" this legit operational cost.

These MDJs subscribe to the "screw em" mentality. It allows a lower price via non-legit operations.



BTW, clients don't "deserve" everything they want.

If clients cannot afford something...then they should go without. But leave it to the lowest common denominators within any industry...to whore themselves out for sake of being chosen in the interest of placating vanity & greed.

Too many sources imparting false wisdom of dream weddings on the low budget.

If someone wants to charge what they think is a fair price, and there able to make profit on it, while offering a top quality product...

Good for them.... I bet there so busy, they don't have time to count there "modest" profits.

I will say, that some of the stuff i see posted on here, leads me to believe there are some on here who've never done a hard days work before.

One must take the good with the bad.

I have a day job.
I have to get up everyday, bust my a$$, for at least 40 hours a week,
many times that turns in to much more.
Yesterday, i started working at 7a.m. and finished at 10.15 P.M!!
it usually turns out to 50-70 hours a week.

I also know a local Dj that IS full-time..
He does not work 40 hours a week at his job, But isn't demanding Peter Merry wages either. He has great equipment, and is booked steady.
But he will most certainly lug his CV Earthquakes up stairs for his rate, and not piss and moan about it.

In doing these comparisons, first off you have to take those that choose to violate the law, out of the discussion, as being an unfair comparison.

It was mentioned several times in this thread "costs".....this is where not enough time is spent.....

We all have different equipment, that cost us different amounts, purchased at different times. This alone can make a "huge" difference in one's cost basis, and then following this, what needs one has for revenue, and how much.

I for one have no lights! A significant additional cost to purchase, and as such would affect my rates. Not only the equipment costs but the upkeep, Bulbs etc...., and additional labor needed to do set-up. (At least for me...an old man..)

I would love to have lights, and someday I will, but until then, in this one category alone I have a cost advantage over someone who has a light display as part of their shows.

Bottom line as long as your pricing policies are a function of cost, you can operate profitably. There is a basic business/economic theory that simply stated says "....You are operating (at the margin) in profitable manner as long as your revenue generated covers/applies to your fixed asset costs....."

Meaning if you can quote a price for a gig that can make that next equipment payment, or cover the house payment your are operating ..."at the margin..." in a profitable manner.....For without that revenue you would be worst off........then with it

Does this make any sense, as applied to the DJ profession?

In doing these comparisons, first off you have to take those that choose to violate the law, out of the discussion, as being an unfair comparison.

It was mentioned several times in this thread "costs".....this is where not enough time is spent.....

We all have different equipment, that cost us different amounts, purchased at different times. This alone can make a "huge" difference in one's cost basis, and then following this, what needs one has for revenue, and how much.

I for one have no lights! A significant additional cost to purchase, and as such would affect my rates. Not only the equipment costs but the upkeep, Bulbs etc...., and additional labor needed to do set-up. (At least for me...an old man..)

I would love to have lights, and someday I will, but until then, in this one category alone I have a cost advantage over someone who has a light display as part of their shows.

Bottom line as long as your pricing policies are a function of cost, you can operate profitably. There is a basic business/economic theory that simply stated says "....You are operating (at the margin) in profitable manner as long as your revenue generated covers/applies to your fixed asset costs....."

Meaning if you can quote a price for a gig that can make that next equipment payment, or cover the house payment your are operating ..."at the margin..." in a profitable manner.....For without that revenue you would be worst off........then with it!

Does this make any sense, as applied to the DJ profession?

Tom,


1) Autonomous operation for nearly all other "profitable businesses" is the goal...not the fringe benefit.

Most small businesses fail to support an autonomous operation...let alone...liveable wages.

2) You've openly admitted the "screw em" mentality to justify lower rates.

3) The "screw em" mentality devalues the industry... because these entities devalue themselves with the "screw em" mentality.


1) I began operating at a growing profit before the end of my first year, and have continued to do so. I also subscribe to the "screw 'em" mentality, because....


2) I can justify my lower rates ( to me- the only one that matters) because I make more money (higher profits) than most who charge higher. You already know how. I also say "screw 'em" because they say "Screw me". Also.....


3) People who overcharge for what they do- in ALL industries- are ALSO saying "screw 'em" to both others in their industries AND their customers. You know, the ones who won't even BOTHER to look for a mobile entertainer because they HEARD they cost too much from some one who was overcharged.

I don't de-value myself. I don't charge the highest fee around, but am upper mid-range, and flexible. I charge a FAIR price, both for me and the customer, because one of the things that I DO value in myself is honor.

The "Industry"?. A little honesty here. I like all the people I've met here and elswhere. I wish all of you the best. However, if you think I go to bed at night worrying about whether what I charge will effect your income, you've been getting too high a level of subsonics in your earphones. Of course, I feel bad about that because I know that all of you think of my income just before your heads hit the pillow.........Um, anyway, we are all independent minded people working at what we love to do to make a living. Period. Judging from what I've read (and posted) regarding the "let's get organized" threads, we LIKE it this way. Capitalism isn't just about making the money, it's also about having the CHOICE of how you do it...

One more repetitive redundancy of a point: As far as bar venues go, I have never been undercut out of a job. As far a private events: Though I may have lost to a lower bidder for an unseen prospect ( 'net or phone ), I have never lost a prospect that has taken the time to meet me.

Maybe fees aren't the problem at all...........:sqerr:

BTW- A newsflash for those who reference "The Industry": There isn't ONE....

If you read the threads in this and other forums, what surfaces is a huge amount of delineation. For instance, most of what comes up on "the Big Show" is related to weddings......though it's an open forum.


Note that you see multiple forums here. For instance: VDJ, Bar, Karaoke Hosting, Wedding, Corporate, School, Etc., etc. etc........


Bar Venue vs. Private Event DJs

Wedding specialists vs everyone else

Corporate, Hall, and Private Residence


Of course, let's not forget the pure Karaoke Host- a different species altogether.

Since, from what's posted, I gleen that these are all different "industries", I don't believe that references to a single industry ( as though united) are valid.

It was mentioned several times in this thread "costs".....this is where not enough time is spent.....

We all have different equipment, that cost us different amounts, purchased at different times. This alone can make a "huge" difference in one's cost basis, and then following this, what needs one has for revenue, and how much.

I for one have no lights! A significant additional cost to purchase, and as such would affect my rates. Not only the equipment costs but the upkeep, Bulbs etc...., and additional labor needed to do set-up. (At least for me...an old man..)

I would love to have lights, and someday I will, but until then, in this one category alone I have a cost advantage over someone who has a light display as part of their shows.

Bottom line as long as your pricing policies are a function of cost, you can operate profitably. There is a basic business/economic theory that simply stated says "....You are operating (at the margin) in profitable manner as long as your revenue generated covers/applies to your fixed asset costs....."

Meaning if you can quote a price for a gig that can make that next equipment payment, or cover the house payment your are operating ..."at the margin..." in a profitable manner.....For without that revenue you would be worst off........then with it!

Does this make any sense, as applied to the DJ profession?

I don't know if this makes sense to others but the way I budget equipment costs is everything over $100.00 I plan to pay out over a year, regardless if I am paying myself back or pay the credit card company or bank. (I try to avoid credit) I put a certian amount from each gig in to our cash fund and have it ready at all times in the event I have to buy quick because of equipment failure

After I had landed my last wedding, that is, the client had signed the contract and had paid me the retainer in cash, we were chatting.

She told me about some of the prices she had come across and she indicated that for those that were $1,000 or more she could get a live band for the same price. She wanted to know how they justify themselves charging "such outrageous prices".

Now, of course I already had this one in the bag and I could have shruged and told her that they weren't worth the price, but, here's what I did say:

I told her that as far as bands were concerned, they have a limited repetoir of music and most take breaks every 20 minutes or so. DJs carry large collections that contain the original artists and DJs don't take breaks, or, at least their music doesn't.

As to the pricing, I did explain that some DJs are full-time and they need to make a liveable wage. And, I honestly do salute the full-time DJ for being able to do this.

She then asked why the full-time DJs couldn't just take on more events so that they can lower their prices to something more reasonable? I tried to explain that there are only a limited number of days in the year, a limited number of clients avaialable, and doing multiple events on one day in different locations is a scheduling nightmare. But, I kind of lost that argument.

How would you explain it if somebody told you as a full-time DJ that you could lower your rates and get more work?

If she thinks $1000 for a band is high, tell her not to get married in N.Y.! lol. Bands in my area get a starting price of at least $8000. To me, if the first words out of a clients mouth is "how much", they are bargain hunting and in my opinion more concerned about price than what they are actually getting. Since I've joined this site, I've noticed a HUGE difference in what clients pay depending on where everyone is located. I can't believe it. :sqeek:
As far as bands go, I have nothing against them at all. The only thing that you can't forget is that no matter how great they may be, they aren't the original artist. Bands were very big in the 80's, but started falling back to DJ's in the early 90's (I can only speak from where I'm from). DJing went from just having a guy show up with two 1200's & a few crates of records to evolving & blowing up into a huge entertainment industry, incorporating much bigger sound systems, light packages, video packages etc. Companies such as mine have even expanded into "wedding centers", incorporating limo's, video, photography, tuxedo's, invitations etc. into the mix. Bands have stepped it up as well, from using more up to date equipment, and even utilizing CD players & Ipods to fill in during the breaks. Everything changes with the times, & to be on top of your game, you need to change with them. Unfortunatley, keeping up with the times can be quite costly.

personally,
i don't subscribe to the "screw 'em" mentality. I find networking with other companies to be much more productive for me.
I don't agree with everybody in my area, and they all don't agree with me and i get along better with some companies than others, but I'm always willing to find something we can agree on so we can network. I think there is plenty of work out there for companies or individuals that want to work hard and do it right. And plenty of work at every price range....at least around here.

personally,
i don't subscribe to the "screw 'em" mentality. I find networking with other companies to be much more productive for me.



Just to clarify, when I talk about "screw 'em", I mean only that I don't raise or lower my rates in accordance to what others charge. That's it. I also network locally with like-minded MEs.

3) People who overcharge for what they do- in ALL industries- are ALSO saying "screw 'em" to both others in their industries AND their customers. You know, the ones who won't even BOTHER to look for a mobile entertainer because they HEARD they cost too much from some one who was overcharged.


There is no such thing as overcharging in our industry. Nowhere are there set fees that we must charge for any of our services. A DJ company may charge as high a figure as they want if they feel they are worth it. It is up to the consumer to make a judgement as to whether or not they want to pay a higher fee for these services and do their homework to determine if the company is worth it.

We are in the "Entertainment Business". Why do the "Rolling Stones" demand such a high fee and lets say a cover band called the "Pebbles" only get a minimul amount for their services?

Well said Johnny.

personally,
i don't subscribe to the "screw 'em" mentality. I find networking with other companies to be much more productive for me.

You must live in a more civilized market than some of us Scott. In my area there are very few that you can even speak to in this business let alone network with. I have a certian circle but for the most part its like dealing with savages

There is no such thing as overcharging in our industry.



In our industries, as in others, there is the "Charge what the market will bear" philosophy. Understood. I was speaking of client perception. A massive exaggeration: If a DJ charges 1000.oo for an event, gets the job, and shows up with an i-POD loaded with 100 songs on a Radio Shack tower, the client will feel screwed, and justly so. The client/customer will then pass the word that they've been "overcharged". If they paid 25.oo, then they will have gotten their money's worth.


Overcharging isn't neccesarily charging a high price, but charging a price that exceeds the client perception of worth.

The Stones charge what they do because they generate even more money as a business, and if they did a private, it's their fame they're selling. Unfortunately, the most famous DJ in the world ( whoever that is...:sqrolleyes:) will never come close- Even ME! :sqcool:

No, I'm openly admitting the "screw em" mentality because I now could care less what the other DJs around here charge.

You're big on production costs; well, I get mine plus a profit margin. The business is sustainable and will remain such as long as I keep tabs on costs.

My only gripe are those around me that tell me to raise my rates, not for the betterment of the "industry" but for their own good because they can't justify their prices. My statement to them now is, don't worry about me. Worry about yourself.

Could I charge $1,200 and get it every single time? I have in the past based on add-ons and I have a package like that still. If I were taking all that stuff to events then I'd be charging $1,200 every time and be able to justify it. But my schtick is simple, no frills weddings that are planned and executed well. No need to charge $1,200 for that.

This is my take...
Everyone should charge whatever they want... Period. END OF DICUSSION. This shouldn't even be a thread!
Charge whatever you feel that you are worth. If you get it... GREAT! If you don't... You better look at yourself, and then make a some adjustments.