To Book or not to Book

I personally think that having karaoke books is a good idea. I believe it makes your clientele at a show or a party feel more comfortable when they can go through your book at their leisure rather than standing infront of everyone at a computer making their choices.

I do not yet use a computer at my shows but even if I did I would still use catalogs.

I use a program called airwer to catalog mine. It has a few gliches but for the most part is a good program.

Please share to book or not to book? If you do catalog what program do you use?

I have NEVER been to ANY karaoke night where there was no book.

Therefore, if I WERE a KJ, then I would definitely have a book (and a different name).

I use books. I tried the no book route a few times. What a clusterf#ck. Sure books get trashed, but really, one nights work should pay for a whole bunch of new books.

I bought KJ Pro years ago. Since I'm a cheap SOB, I manually type in anything that's not in their database (I type pretty fast).

I don't know about being cheap Jfactor. I am re-doing some of my books. Five inch binder was $18.95 each, plastic sleeves are $3.96 per 12, paper, ink and help stuffing all that. I know with just supply cost it was around $100.00 per book. Got to love it when people throw them and spill beer all over them. Good times.

I've never seen a KJ show without a book. I think the general Karaoke audience in itself is used to books. Most karaoke takes place in bars; Who really wants to mess with a computer when they're wasted? I know my typing skills lack greatly after a few drinks. I couldn't imagine trying to pick out a song via kiosk no matter how simple it is.

For book longevity why not print the book out and take it to Staples, Kinkos or even the local library and get each page laminated? Sure it's going to cost a bit but your book is going to last a lot longer.

A cheaper option would be to put each sheet in a page protector (http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesSearch?storeId=10001&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&categoryId=10634&cmArea=SEARCH&searchClassId=10634&keyword=presentation+sheet+protectors&actualKeyword=paper+protector&searchSkuCount=4&compChartFlag=true&searchUnsumUrl=searchresults&searchSumUrl=searchresultssummary&errorUrl=searchnoresults&fromUrl=searchresultssummary&cmArea=SEARCH). Another thing I always thought is why do KJ's waste paper? Request sheets can be laminted and dry erase markers can be used. This would save on paper/ink costs but then you have to worry about people walking away with your markers. :confused:

Just my .02,
Dan

They ran a karaoke contest one night after the computer summit no books. I missed them. It would have been nice to know what selections they had rather then guessing. I still had a great time though.

I use books and will always use books. I hate when people change the disk numbers though. I want to see what the song version is, generally I will only sing off a sound choice disc.

The big problem is that they are very expensive and 4 nights a week of karaoke puts some serious wear and tear on books. I think my last reprint was around $500. I reprint once a year now. With 500 pages in a book I think this print I have 40,000 songs, plastic is about $15 a book, the binders are $16 that is $31 without the cost of copies. I print 16 books each time around. I keep 4 ( 2 Artist and 2 Song Title ) for private parties only. And Have 12 for the bar ( 8 Artist and 4 Song title)

I have thought about having them printed and bound without plastic sleeves. That did not work for a friend that had tried that route.

It is a no win situation, my books are completly trashed right now. The binders give out and the rings no longer meet in the center and at the end of a night you pick up a book and it is all over the floor.

In all honesty books are not so bad until you break the 10,000 song barrier.

I use KJ Pro to make my books, it is not the greatest, but I have yet to find anything better.

As the guy who has probably been using kiosks the longest ('cause I wrote the program and for years nobody wanted it) I can state with confidence that you still need books. New folks are intimidated by the song-stations or whatever you want to call them however, once they start using the kiosks rather that books and slips everything goes smoother. But, you do need books. Although not nearly so many and updating is much, much, much! cheaper and easier.
I would say I got 80-85% through the kiosks which is great because that means I don't have to sort them into the rotation. More beer drinking time.

I don't know about being cheap Jfactor. I am re-doing some of my books. Five inch binder was $18.95 each, plastic sleeves are $3.96 per 12, paper, ink and help stuffing all that. I know with just supply cost it was around $100.00 per book. Got to love it when people throw them and spill beer all over them. Good times.


You're getting KILLED on the sleeves and binders, Carolyn. I just bought 100 sleeves at Staples. Normal price is 9.45/100 medium weight (tuff enough) and this day they were on sale for 4.99
5" binder runs about 7.00 with internal cover pockets, 5.49 without

I will always use books and I will always include MFR. numbers for customer reference. I'm a KJ Pro user, BTW.

I'm a KJ Proer also...

I use books but I do know one computer KJ who has so many songs that he just tells people to come up and tell him what song they want and 99% of the time,,, wham,,, there ya go....

I think people like to look thru books so they can get ideas...

Thanks Joe, I will try Staples. I have been using Office Depot because of the free shipping, it comes to my door and convenient but obviously way too costly. Thanks for the input.

I was speaking to a couple of my regulars and they told me they went to a karaoke bar with one book. The line was atleast 10 people and they felt so uncomfortable like they were being rushed, so they left.

Books are also a great way to get a newbie started. They leaf thru for ideas or something familiar enough to sing....

I'm for books, all the way. I use the sheet protectors with three-ring-binders and invested in my own laser printer. I put the new releases in the front of each section (Artist & Title) on different colored paper. I haven't run into any problems with books getting destroyed, but I find I do have to wipe them off almost every week - dried beer gets icky & sticky. :)

I know KJPro has become almost the standard for bookmaking, but I'm surprised no one's mentioned Music Book Deluxe. I've used it for over five years & love it.

I put the new releases in the front of each section (Artist & Title) on different colored paper. I haven't run into any problems with books getting destroyed, but I find I do have to wipe them off almost every week - dried beer gets icky & sticky. :)

I know KJPro has become almost the standard for bookmaking, but I'm surprised no one's mentioned Music Book Deluxe. I've used it for over five years & love it.

I have to wipe my books( I use alcohol ) after every show. Kayleigh, how often do you add new releases to each book? I'm always adding to the host book, but I usually do the others after 1-2 hundred songs. I reprint the books after 1000-1500 all inclusive.

I've never tried Music Book Deluxe

Carolyn...I suspect problems with the sleeves stems from the fact that they are open at one end allowing liquids and such to seep in....
Bag sealers will allow you to crimp the open end closed...making the sheets impervious to liquids...they would last forever or umntil one had to be changed to add a new song....but that cost would be minimal....

I don't know if this is logical or not....

I've been adding new songs at least once a month, usually every 2-4 weeks. I subscribe to a monthly download service for Panorama's Top Hits Monthly catalog, plus I'll buy MP3+G songs or custom CDGs as customers request (if I can buy at least five MP3+G songs I get a little discount). I added about 3200 songs last year (it was my first full year on my own in my own business - I started the year with about 2400 or so songs) My new release list was about 35-40 pages (per section), 2-column, 2-sided.

I just reprinted my books a couple weeks ago; right now, five books for the bar and one for me seems to suit fine. It's 66 pages each section (132 pages total) all 2-column, 2-sided.

Carolyn...I suspect problems with the sleeves stems from the fact that they are open at one end allowing liquids and such to seep in....
Bag sealers will allow you to crimp the open end closed...making the sheets impervious to liquids...they would last forever or umntil one had to be changed to add a new song....but that cost would be minimal....

I don't know if this is logical or not....

Thanks Steve may have to look into that one.


Kayleigh, I wanted to say hi and welcome you here.

You want indestructable books?

There's never any shortcuts, any way you go about making books. From proofreading, to the actual construction, it's going to take a while to get it all done.

After 25 years of having books destroyed we finally got tough. We purchased a $300 brother duplex printing laser printer, 2x 3m Hot laminate machines and plenty of hot lam pouches.

We laid everything out assemble line on the bar and invited some regulars down for an afternoon of free hot wings and beer so long as they worked on the line.

The line looked like this....

Printer > Hot lam > 3 Hole Punch > Binders > Soldering Station

After a book was printed, one of the hot lam people would take it, stuff it in a hotlam pouch, then feed it through one of the hot lam machines. Then 2 people with 3 hole punches would punch the holes and put the pages in a binder.

The final stage on the assemble line was a proofreader/Solderer. It was there job to make sure the pages were ordered correctly in the books. When they deemed everything correct, they would solder the ring together, ensuring no drunky would be able to rip the book apart.

We priced everything out before we did it. For 20 books, if we had kinko's do it it would have cost about the same, except we wouldn't have a shiny new printer and 2 shiny hot lam machines in the end.

Ah, books...there is a subject I learned hands on. Here are some fruits of my experiences...

I do my books in Microsoft Access, take them to an office supply megastore and have them printed 2 sides, then insert them in plastic sleeves, inserted into a 3 ring 1 1/2 inch binder. I do my new additions in yellow paper and insert them into the front of the book. This set up will easily last you over a year with heavy use and a little care.

Carolyn, if you live anywhere near an Office Depot, or Office Max, DO NOT buy your book supplies online! NEVER! Always watch the Sunday newspaper ads and when things you need go on sale, buy them before you need them at a greatly reduced price, then you will have them at book making time. Back to school specials are rampant.

Splurge and get the durable binders, but don't spend a fortune on them...if they are real pricey, stock up on the economy binders and replace them as they wear out. The aforementioned retailers often have buy one get one free sales on view binders and plain binders. I use view binders so that I can place a nice cover sheet on the front and an ad on the back with my schedule.

Dont use an overly large font, and control the size of your borders? How many songs can you get on one page? Adjusting these settings will dramatically and exponentially affect the size of your book. A font change from 12 pt to 14 pt could mean the addition of 10 or more pages to your book...keep the pages to as minimum as possible, without sacrificing neatness and readability.

If you can, remove duplicates to save room and singer confusion. If you are not sure what the best version is, leave the dupe in, but most KJs will find they have a dupe rate of 25% easily...removing them takes a huge expense out of your book making cost. I remove my dupes, and also I add a column with the manufacturer of the disc for those with a preference. When I print my master book, I also print out my removed dupes, in case a disc gets damaged or someone does not like the version I have in the book for some reason.

Using this method, I can make my books for around 10 bucks a book. That is for a catalog of about 8000 songs.

Last thing on my mind...I do not put the artist and song alphabetizations in the same book...I make about 70% of my books artist only, and 30% title only alphabetization...this makes sense for me as it makes the books smaller, and most singers have a preference for which way they would rather look up a song...and I clearly mark it on the front of the book, and I use black covers for artist books and blue covers for title books. This has never been a problem as long as I have been doing karaoke.

Keep the updates in the front, and that is all you have to reprint until new book time comes around!

That is all for now...holler if you have any questions or clarifications. My books are in the field 6-7 nights a week, and this has worked fine for me!

And there is the other option, Paper books no sleeves.

Use the criteria that Harry has put forward for size reduction. Using a paper book (no Sleeves) what it takes a 3 inch binder to hold can be stapled into a 3/4" book.

I use a laminated cover front and back so the only thing that gets sticky is the front and back, very easy to wipe clean with windex.

Using a five staple spread on the binding the books will take a lot of abuse and generally last about a year in fairly decent condition.

Updates I do a few copies in seperate small books until I update each year. Cost is substantially reduced over binders and sleeves. Size and weight is greatly reduced. In the same area you need to carry 10 3" binders you can put 30 to 40 paper books.

Do you use heavier weight paper? Do you have any problems with pages getting ripped out or inner pages getting beer-abused? How do you distribute pens & request slips? Does Joanie really love Chachi?

1. Do you use heavier weight paper?
2. Do you have any problems with pages getting ripped out or inner pages getting beer-abused?

3. How do you distribute pens & request slips?

4.Does Joanie really love Chachi?

Speaking for my method

1. No, regular copy paper is fine!

2. Depends on how abused the book gets overall...I find the sheet protectors keep the rips to a minimum, but occasionally the books get manhandled and the protectors can come off the loops. My books often get submerged it seems, so the inner pages can get messy. If it is a sticky mess, then it requires some cleaning. As Steve does his books, he says he has a plus as no matter what spills on them, they air dry and are fine. That is probably the biggest diff between Steves method and mine. But on the upside, if I have a block of 10 pages ruined, I can always repair my books easily. THAT hasnt happened yet. All I have ever had to do for repair is either wipe, reclip or replace a binder cover.

3. Used to be anal about putting them in the books and making everything convenient, but I found a lot more waste in that method. Now, I keep the slips and the pens near the books close to the stage. Rather than distribute books, I make the people who want them come and get them, and their pen and slips. When I did it the other way, the books got used for coasters by non singers or got put on the floor. I used to lose books to theft as well, but now it seems all the books are better accounted for, stay in better shape and I go thru less pens and slips.

4. Yes, but far more than he loves her I am afraid.

1. Do you use heavier weight paper?

No I use a standard 20# paper.

2. Do you have any problems with pages getting ripped out or inner pages getting beer-abused?

From time to time someone will deliberately tear a book up but it is not a common practice. Because the books close themselves very little problems with beer soaks and honestly as Harry has said the pages will air dry with no ill effects.

3. How do you distribute pens & request slips?

I use a signup sheet method the pen is attached to the clip board.

4.Does Joanie really love Chachi?

No but they are good in bed! So it more more a matter of convenient sex than a matter of love.

Each show and KJ has to figure out whats right for them. With all the new computer advancements to get rid of books and slips, its always good to have a backup to fall back on. The ideas given by so many here Carolyn, are all good in their own way. I guess I still like the feeling of dealing with my singers, by making sure if they have a question about a song, or what version, etc, and either a sign up sheet or slips, works, depending on whats easier for you, or being able to announce your next singers, (I saw this at someones show,) by taking the song slip, but a picture of your face comes up like a mug shot, before you come up to sing, a camera takes your picture after your first song, or if you have sung before, they have it on file. I thought that was very entertaining. Its all in the KJ's way of making the night fun for everyone. We all know that the maintenance in running a show and our care of the books will always be one of the chores we have to continue with, even with computers, books will always be our backup.....Have a great show,
All my Best to you,
MV:sqlaugh:

3. How do you distribute pens & request slips?



4.Does Joanie really love Chachi?





3) I use binders with pockets. Slips and pens are in the front of the book


4) Have you SEEN those to actors recently? eeeeewww

I don't know about being cheap Jfactor. I am re-doing some of my books. Five inch binder was $18.95 each, plastic sleeves are $3.96 per 12, paper, ink and help stuffing all that. I know with just supply cost it was around $100.00 per book. Got to love it when people throw them and spill beer all over them. Good times.

5 inch binder? Man that is a big library Carolyn! I about lost it when I just bought 2" binders. I got my binders at Costco for a really good deal so you might check there. Not sure if they have 5" though.

Do you double column Carolyn?

To book or not to book? That is the question. Whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outragous printing costs, or to take arms against a sea of ring-binders, and by opposing use kiosks.

$10.00 computer or $20.00 book. I will my quietus make with a bared motherboard... or bodkin whichever is handier.

.........I will my quietus make with a bared motherboard... or bodkin whichever is handier.


Huh? :sqembarrassed:

I will my quietus make with a bared motherboard... or bodkin whichever is handier. Don't forget the flux capacitor.

Huh? :sqembarrassed:

"...For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despis'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin?...."

Billy Shakespear: Hamlet Act III Scene I. Part of the whole "To Be or Not To Be." speach. Right before he gets to the bit about mortal fardels.

"...For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despis'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin?...."

Billy Shakespear: Hamlet Act III Scene I. Part of the whole "To Be or Not To Be." speach. Right before he gets to the bit about mortal fardels.

I knew it was Billy....I just didn't know um...what it meant. :rofl:

Essentially it means why would you you put up with all the crap when you could find peace with and unsheathed knife, or in my case motherboard.

Essentially it means why would you you put up with all the crap when you could find peace with and unsheathed knife, or in my case motherboard.

I dont know where you all work, but where I work, people have a hard time grasping the concept of a book, let alone unleashing them on a pc. And what about the demographic who cant type, or are PC illiterate? What about those who use liquids near the PC, or those who cant resist seeing what else the PC can do, or maliciously damage the software...

There are also those who find poring thru a catalog to be a part of the experience. With a PC you are limited to waiting your turn and one at a time browsing.

Yes, books are a pain, but that is what customer service is all about. Even if I put a pc out, I will still have books.

I dont know where you all work, but where I work, people have a hard time grasping the concept of a book, let alone unleashing them on a pc. And what about the demographic who cant type, or are PC illiterate? What about those who use liquids near the PC, or those who cant resist seeing what else the PC can do, or maliciously damage the software...

These days finding someone who can't use a mouse is like finding someone who can't use a phone. In a kiosk there is no typing other than perhaps your name the first time. "Liquids near the computer" is why you use junk computers that people are throwing away. And those who want to know what else the kiosk computer can do will find it can do nothing else nor is the network or operating system accessable.

But, I agree that you still need books just a lot fewer of them. At my shows you have a choice of books or kiosks. 85% of the requests come over the kiosk mostly I think becasue it's easier to click than to fill out a slip.

Do you have any problem, on the BUSY nights, with people abusing the PC kiosk system by either using pseudonyms, signing up their buddies to "surprise" them, or any other pranks that come from the anonymity of the kiosk system?

One thing I have always embraced about the slip system, is the interface I get with the singer at that moment, and I can check the name pronunciation, let them know the song has been sung already or some other query, AND I can see the face to relate to the name so that I know if they are abusing a privelege...

Interfacing in person also allows me to gauge their sobriety.

Have you ever had someone claim to have registered via the kiosk and then you did not get the request, either by their error or the PCs?

Just drawing on things that actually have happened in the past in thought to doing it a new way...

Do you have any problem, on the BUSY nights, with people abusing the PC kiosk system by either using pseudonyms, signing up their buddies to "surprise" them, or any other pranks that come from the anonymity of the kiosk system?

One thing I have always embraced about the slip system, is the interface I get with the singer at that moment, and I can check the name pronunciation, let them know the song has been sung already or some other query, AND I can see the face to relate to the name so that I know if they are abusing a privelege...

Interfacing in person also allows me to gauge their sobriety.

Have you ever had someone claim to have registered via the kiosk and then you did not get the request, either by their error or the PCs?

Just drawing on things that actually have happened in the past in thought to doing it a new way...

Pretty much the same as with slips. Often people in a group would just send one person up to deliver a mass of slips for everyone at the table so I wouldn't know for sure who was who. I used to have it rigged on the kiosk where they had to bring up a slip first and I would have to enter it into the main system before their name would appear on the kiosk but that turned out to be overkill. Yeah, I have had people claim that the computer lost their request but then I used to have people say I lost their slip. I am much more likely to lose a request than the computer is. The biggest drawback to the kiosks is carting them around, WHICH IS A PAIN.

I'm with weed. I use books I also use a kiosk... the unique thing about the one I use is that it requires a bar code be entered or read before a singer may enter their name and song. This allows me to do two things. 1. I hand out one song slip at a time.... the singer then enters their song waits their turn then gets a new slip from me. 2. It frees me up to do other duties, such as work the crowd.

Now of course there is allways that joker out there that thinks they can beat the system by using different names.... hence the reason I hand one ticket out at a time. Despite what singers think us KJ's are not stupid we know when your trying to cheat the system.

As for portablility... that's easily solved if you are willing to spend a little more than $10 as Weed sugested.... you can get a 1U rack mount pc with minimal installation software use a touch screen monitor (thus eliminating the need for keyboard and mouse), and scanner. Now since I also rackmount my server they are both nice and neatly mounted safely in my rack.... which I wheel in. Cost of rackmounting a pc even a garage sale pc is less than $200 bucks. But annual savings on printing books will offset that cost in the long run. Now obviously a touch screen monitor is waaaaaaay expensive compared to the garage sale monitor that came with the $10 pc. But it's way more convienent. I have yet to add the touchscreen but it's in the works for me.