Using house sound

[rickryan.com]

I provided lighting, photobooth and video from a mitzvah this past weekend at a restaurant. They had a 2.5k sq ft room with a built-in sound system. 5 tops with 2 18" radiators downward-firing from the ceiling (15 feet). The owner was pretty uptight and made the comment, "You'll probably overdrive my system and blowing my speakers." This was my Jewish-DJ friend's gig and I wasn't responsible for sound. Of course, because my friend doesn't cover his bases so well I ended up setting up a yammy mixer and fed the house via XLR output. The signal at our mixer was ultra-clean and never tapped past the 2nd green light (nowhere near yellow or red the whole night). When we did sound check, we handed the guy 50% and he went ballistic, shouting "too much signal". Since he was up high in a DJ booth (had to use a ladder to get to it) I couldn't see what he was doing. We cooled the signal off and he seemed okay. We used the guy's wireless hand-held, going directly into his system.

During the night, there were several times where distortion got really bad. Mostly on the guy's mic but to some extent the music as well. For amps, he had 2 on his tops (don't remember the make) and a single Crown ce1000 to drive the subs. It appeared he had sufficient watts (not what I'd call proper) to push his cabs but it kept sticking in my head about us over-driving his mixer with such a low output. I climbed up there once and it looked to be a standard behry, band-style mixer. Part of me is wondering if the whole issue couldn't have been as simple as engaging the pad button on his mixer. I did ask him if he'd tried using a limiter. He said "Yea, but it doesn't help." Anyone care to speculate? FWIW, I'll likely bring out own sound next time. A single ls801 and pair of K10s would have absolutely crushed his sound.

 

[Proformance]

I provided lighting, photobooth and video from a mitzvah this past weekend at a restaurant. They had a 2.5k sq ft room with a built-in sound system. 5 tops with 2 18" radiators downward-firing from the ceiling (15 feet). The owner was pretty uptight and made the comment, "You'll probably overdrive my system and blowing my speakers." This was my Jewish-DJ friend's gig and I wasn't responsible for sound. Of course, because my friend doesn't cover his bases so well I ended up setting up a yammy mixer and fed the house via XLR output. The signal at our mixer was ultra-clean and never tapped past the 2nd green light (nowhere near yellow or red the whole night). When we did sound check, we handed the guy 50% and he went ballistic, shouting "too much signal". Since he was up high in a DJ booth (had to use a ladder to get to it) I couldn't see what he was doing. We cooled the signal off and he seemed okay. We used the guy's wireless hand-held, going directly into his system.

During the night, there were several times where distortion got really bad. Mostly on the guy's mic but to some extent the music as well. For amps, he had 2 on his tops (don't remember the make) and a single Crown ce1000 to drive the subs. It appeared he had sufficient watts (not what I'd call proper) to push his cabs but it kept sticking in my head about us over-driving his mixer with such a low output. I climbed up there once and it looked to be a standard behry, band-style mixer. Part of me is wondering if the whole issue couldn't have been as simple as engaging the pad button on his mixer. I did ask him if he'd tried using a limiter. He said "Yea, but it doesn't help." Anyone care to speculate? FWIW, I'll likely bring out own sound next time. A single ls801 and pair of K10s would have absolutely crushed his sound.

It sounds like an impedance mismatch. There's nothing inherently wrong with his system. Your mixer outs are line level and you were likely feeding mic level inputs. In addition to reducing the reference level gain you need to match the impedance to stop the distortions.

 

[rickryan.com]

It sounds like an impedance mismatch. There's nothing inherently wrong with his system. Your mixer outs are line level and you were likely feeding mic level inputs. In addition to reducing the reference level gain you need to match the impedance to stop the distortions.

Okay, I'll bite. The only time I've heard "impedence" is in speaking of the ohm rating of a speaker. I wasn't aware that impedence also pertained on the pre-mixer side. As I've understood it, it's mic-level signal level or line-level signal. if you're going to feed a line-level signal (+4 dbu) into a mic channel (-30 dbu), I understood that you'd use the PAD button on the mixer to lower the input signal. I'd also suspect his gain was too hot on his AKG wireless, hence the excessive mic distortion.

 

[steve149]

There's also 2 line levels ... +4dBu and -10dBV .. the first is a "pro" level, the second, consumer. Some mixers have a switch to set the output level, some are fixed on one or the other. These should be matched or you can also overload the other input if it's expecting consumer level (like a CD output) and you give it a hotter "pro" level.

 

[Proformance]

Okay, I'll bite. The only time I've heard "impedence" is in speaking of the ohm rating of a speaker. I wasn't aware that impedence also pertained on the pre-mixer side. As I've understood it, it's mic-level signal level or line-level signal. if you're going to feed a line-level signal (+4 dbu) into a mic channel (-30 dbu), I understood that you'd use the PAD button on the mixer to lower the input signal. I'd also suspect his gain was too hot on his AKG wireless, hence the excessive mic distortion.

Level is part 1. Making sure the gear and entire signal path is cable of compatible impedance matching is step 2. Impedance mismatch is usually the case if you have gotten acceptable levels yet, there is still distortion that resembles an overload condition; or you cannot get an acceptably strong enough level.

Your signal can also get wrecked even before it reaches the 2nd mixer if there is any kind of circuit/buffer acting on it at the remote input panels or pre-fader inserts. Typically I will feed another system only at balanced mic level - it is typically what most systems are best ready to accept.

 

[steve149]

Level is part 1. Making sure the gear and entire signal path is cable of compatible impedance matching is step 2. Impedance mismatch is usually the case if you have gotten acceptable levels yet, there is still distortion that resembles an overload condition; or you cannot get an acceptably strong enough level.

Your signal can also get wrecked even before it reaches the 2nd mixer if there is any kind of circuit/buffer acting on it at the remote input panels or pre-fader inserts. Typically I will feed another system only at balanced mic level - it is typically what most systems are best ready to accept.

Actually, I prefer going line level out unless I only have a mic option (had that at a gym once for a speaking event where they offered a wall plate where a mic normally comes in and no access to the locked system), unless you know the house system has good mic pres. One of the main duties of a mixer is to get all signals up to a consistent line level .. if the one you are feeding is adequate .. why go through another pre-amp?

 

[Proformance]

Actually, I prefer going line level out unless I only have a mic option (had that at a gym once for a speaking event where they offered a wall plate where a mic normally comes in and no access to the locked system), unless you know the house system has good mic pres. One of the main duties of a mixer is to get all signals up to a consistent line level .. if the one you are feeding is adequate .. why go through another pre-amp?

I find very few instances of a balanced line level input via XLR because that's primarily a broadcast standard. You'll find TRS on the boards if your local, but almost never on a remote wall plate, and they are often already reserved on snakes for returns.

Chances are, if Rick's board was +4 or +10 and the mic input he was feeding was seeking more like a dynamic -30 the gap is already too wide for the gain controls.

A good in-house sound tech will be able to patch whatever you give them but, if there isn't such a person on site and the venue won't let you make any temporary changes - you can be stuck with the mismatch. I start small with the most basic expectation (dynamic mic) and then work up from there. People are less freaked out by an initially weak signal you can improve than a shocking overload condition you are struggling to prevent.

 

[steve149]

One reason I bring a pair of Behringer Sharks. Mic-line, line-mic, and a host of other features. One of their best products (except for the stupid proprietary power supply) IMO.

 

[Proformance]

One reason I bring a pair of Behringer Sharks. Mic-line, line-mic, and a host of other features. One of their best products (except for the stupid proprietary power supply) IMO.

I picked up a broadcast quality four channel XLR mic/line mixer from the used gear pile at a local Guitar center for around $50 (Less than 1/16 it's real value because they didn't know any different.) Aside from adding mics it lets me actively receive/send and convert XLR balanced mic or line levels. Very handy for feeding house PA through the wall plates at the exact mic levels they are setup for, even when using condenser mics with phantom power.

 

[steve149]

I picked up a broadcast quality four channel XLR mic/line mixer from the used gear pile at a local Guitar center for around $50 (Less than 1/16 it's real value because they didn't know any different.) Aside from adding mics it lets me actively receive/send and convert XLR balanced mic or line levels. Very handy for feeding house PA through the wall plates at the exact mic levels they are setup for, even when using condenser mics with phantom power.

Better for mics .. the sharks I've used for delay and feedback reduction in addition to level matching. I wish they had a standard wall wart (too small for a built in supply I think). I also have a Rane MLM42S which I have used for what you describe .. takes line or mic inputs (w/wo phantom) and is switch settable or mic or line output. I have used it as a submixer (usually on drums) when someone surprises me and asks for more inputs than the mixer I brought has.

 

[rickryan.com]

There's also 2 line levels ... +4dBu and -10dBV .. the first is a "pro" level, the second, consumer. Some mixers have a switch to set the output level, some are fixed on one or the other. These should be matched or you can also overload the other input if it's expecting consumer level (like a CD output) and you give it a hotter "pro" level.

If I remember it correct;

+4 is "pro" line level
-10 is "consumer" line level
-20 to -30 is mic line level

I'm still scratching my head on Bob's mention of impedance though. Do any of you guys know what a typical mixer's "pad" button does, in terms of reducing the level?

 

[TwinSpinDJ]

I've got a gig coming up in next week where I will be utilizing the event center's overhead mic/speaker system. They use it for room ambiance music and microphone speaking from podium/wireless microphone.

The room is a large banquet style rectangular with capability to divide into 4 separate sections. The event will be in the first two sections (portable wall retracted so it is one room), but a third section for cocktails only. The speakers are all built into the ceiling, so it isn't to be used for dance sound system, but microphone and cocktail music.

I'm headed there tomorrow to check out the connection point where I will be setup for play. Since I have never used an in-house mic system before I'm not sure what questions to ask. What kind of connector will normally be needed?

My mixer, Pioneer DJM 5000, has separate zone outputs (XLR). I intend to use the Zone outputs to send sound from the Master (cocktails and microphone) to the third section where the cocktail hour will be on-going. The Zone line will connect to the venue's house overhead system via connections in the wall. I can control the Sound Level from the Mixer's Zone Level section to the House system. Hopefully, the venue will have some way to connect only my Zone to the room where cocktails are being held. I'm guessing the venue will be able to shut off the overhead speakers to the other two sections where I will also be playing cocktail music.

I will report back after the site survey/meeting tomorrow.

For connectors, I have the following connecting cords:

(1) Cord with XLR Male on one end and 1/4 TRS on the other.
(1) RCA connector (female) R/L to 1/8 (TRS).
(1) RCA "Y" connector (RCA female on one end RCA R/L on the other)

It is possible that I may have to play cocktail music in Mono mode, and use either the left or right channel XLR, as I don't have a combination "Y" with all ends being female XLR. It's only cocktail music and announcements that will be made using the Zone channel.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm not that technical minded.

 

[steve149]

If I remember it correct;

+4 is "pro" line level
-10 is "consumer" line level
-20 to -30 is mic line level

I'm still scratching my head on Bob's mention of impedance though. Do any of you guys know what a typical mixer's "pad" button does, in terms of reducing the level?

Most are a 20db cut in level.


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[steve149]

I've got a gig coming up in next week where I will be utilizing the event center's overhead mic/speaker system. They use it for room ambiance music and microphone speaking from podium/wireless microphone.

The room is a large banquet style rectangular with capability to divide into 4 separate sections. The event will be in the first two sections (portable wall retracted so it is one room), but a third section for cocktails only. The speakers are all built into the ceiling, so it isn't to be used for dance sound system, but microphone and cocktail music.

I'm headed there tomorrow to check out the connection point where I will be setup for play. Since I have never used an in-house mic system before I'm not sure what questions to ask. What kind of connector will normally be needed?

My mixer, Pioneer DJM 5000, has separate zone outputs (XLR). I intend to use the Zone outputs to send sound from the Master (cocktails and microphone) to the third section where the cocktail hour will be on-going. The Zone line will connect to the venue's house overhead system via connections in the wall. I can control the Sound Level from the Mixer's Zone Level section to the House system. Hopefully, the venue will have some way to connect only my Zone to the room where cocktails are being held. I'm guessing the venue will be able to shut off the overhead speakers to the other two sections where I will also be playing cocktail music.

I will report back after the site survey/meeting tomorrow.

For connectors, I have the following connecting cords:

(1) Cord with XLR Male on one end and 1/4 TRS on the other.
(1) RCA connector (female) R/L to 1/8 (TRS).
(1) RCA "Y" connector (RCA female on one end RCA R/L on the other)

It is possible that I may have to play cocktail music in Mono mode, and use either the left or right channel XLR, as I don't have a combination "Y" with all ends being female XLR. It's only cocktail music and announcements that will be made using the Zone channel.

Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm not that technical minded.

Just don't use a Wye to combine a signal. To split it's ok. Zone out is a proper way to feed a second system since you have control over volume.


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[DJ Bobcat]

Just don't use a Wye to combine a signal. To split it's ok. Zone out is a proper way to feed a second system since you have control over volume.


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So WHAT is the best way to combine two signals (Right & Left to mono)? I tried a summing box, but was not pleased with the combined signal quality. It seemed somewhat distorted.


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[Proformance]

So WHAT is the best way to combine two signals (Right & Left to mono)? I tried a summing box, but was not pleased with the combined signal quality. It seemed somewhat distorted.


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Use a passive direct box, feed both 1/4" jacks with a Hi-Z (RCA or 1/4" TS) signal, and use the XLR out to feed the wall plate. These wall plates are generally set to receive a dynamic mic (-20 to -30db). If you feed direct from your mixers XLR outputs you will overload the house inputs.

Patching a "Y" on Hi-Z unbalanced lines (RCA or 1/4" TS) presents little problem and only minor loss. Alternatively, if your mixer has a mono switch just feed the DI with one leg. Keep in mind that some DJ mixers have a "record" output - however, this output might not include the microphones (mix minus).

 

[Proformance]

If I remember it correct;

+4 is "pro" line level
-10 is "consumer" line level
-20 to -30 is mic line level

I'm still scratching my head on Bob's mention of impedance though. Do any of you guys know what a typical mixer's "pad" button does, in terms of reducing the level?

There's also +10 which can turn up in television broadcasting.

 

[steve149]

So WHAT is the best way to combine two signals (Right & Left to mono)? I tried a summing box, but was not pleased with the combined signal quality. It seemed somewhat distorted.


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Agree with Pro .. a good DI box with summing capability is the easiest way. The Radial PROAV1 or 2 is a good bet.

A good treatise on the subject: Why Not Wye?

 

[DJ Bobcat]

Agree with Pro .. a good DI box with summing capability is the easiest way. The Radial PROAV1 or 2 is a good bet.

A good treatise on the subject: Why Not Wye?

Thanks Steve and Proformance... I knew not to use a "Y" cable, and in my research, I found a similar article, which led me to the summing box. Some of these articles still go over my head, since I'm still trying to educate myself on audio concepts. There's a lot more to it than I ever thought[emoji4]


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[TwinSpinDJ]

Checked out the venue for next week's gig. The venue's overhead speaker system allows for an XLR input, so I'm good. I will play cocktail music through the overhead system in all rooms at the same time.

I also did sound check of my Evox 8 system. It sounded really good in the current room. Unfortunately, the room divider was still up so I couldn't tell how well it was going to sound in the second room...at the rear. To complicate matters, they are opening another curtain to make the room 2-1/3 sections. I'm now concerned that I may not have enough speaker for the entire 2-1/3 rooms. I was fine with just two, but the additional space makes it very iffy. That last third section is where the head table and flags will be positioned--it's a military event. I'm stressing just a bit over potentially not having enough good sound for the entire space.

I put the Evox 8 head on the highest pole setting to get it up in the air. It would be nice if the banquet tables in the first room were filled with single soldiers and young soldiers and their wives who wouldn't mind LOUD music. It could be loud in the first section to get the sound comfortable in the last section where the dignitaries will be seated.

The problem with putting a second set of speakers (tops) at the beginning of the second section is the width of the room and distance to where the DJ is set up. It's at least 50-60 ft. from the center of the wall behind me to the corner of the room and then at least another 100 ft. to the beginning of the next section. I don't know if I have enough speaker cable to do only one side of the room, let alone the other side. Dilemma. Any suggestions?

By adding another sound system RCF (200 watt tops (12") and (400 watt subs (15"), and putting them beside the Evox 8 might help with presence, but not the throw. Those of you who have the Evox 8, how much distance straight out in front before the sound gets thin? The RCF tops don't throw that far, but I believe the Evox may throw a bit more. Help! Did I bite more off than I could chew? I booked the gig when I still had the Yorkville system. Maybe I should have waited until after this gig to buy the Evox 8's?