Using house sound
- Thread starter rickryan.com
- Start date
Yes, UBECAMERIGHT once it was confirmed the XLR wall plate was fully balanced. Don't go forward assuming that always to be the case - or that pin 1 will be the ground. 30 years ago there was another wiring scheme that is no longer in use now that there is a global standard.
Oh, okay. I'm just glad to know that I was correct, and that I could have a little fun at your expense.
Proformance, again, thank you. It is doubtful that the venue will allow or take the time to work with me to reconfigure their system to meet my needs. I do have a pair RCA to 1/4 adapter plugs and a 1/4 (TRS) to XLR cable.
As far as getting the music all the way to the back wall where the head table is situated may not be an issue during dancing, as most of the members of the head table will disappear from the room when dancing begins. Besides, it is a long walk from the head table to the dance floor which is directly in front of me. But, I do need to get cocktail hour and dinner music to all locations, as I have previously indicated.
It appears that I must use the Zone for cocktail/dinner music to get it to all areas of the room. Will the Guitar Center SPDI Passive Direct Box w/ attenuation work better than just the Passive DI box? I'm not totally clear on how to set that box up. I can run the XLR from Zone outputs to the Passive DI box on one end. Take the 1/4 TRS jack from a 1/4 to XLR cable and connect it to the DI box Output and then into the wall plate with the XLR end of the cable. Correct? Unfortunately, when drum roll for posting the colors, playing of the National Anthem, Army Song and MI March happen it will have to come through my DJ system because I cannot be connected to the house system while the house wireless microphone is connected to the wall plate. Do you see my dilemma?
I think you would be much better off not connecting to the house system at all. If there is only a patch for one input then leave it for the house microphone and don't mess with it. There's no reason to think your own system can't be heard across the whole room. The Colors presentation and head table mic are more important. I don't think the background music is an issue worth the headache you are about to experience if you try to do this swap on the fly.
You should not do what you suggested in your last post - because certain devices work most effectively in one direction, and this problem is electrical not a simple case of matching connectors or adapters. There is no TRS involved in this connection. (TRS and XLR are electrically identical.)
To use your zone output for this purpose you need to insert this: Whirlwind IMP Pad -40dB inline with the XLR feeding the wall plate. I do not however, think it is practical for you to be swapping in and out of the feed with the house mic. I would leave the house mic connected without interruption and simply use your own system where music is required.
You should not do what you suggested in your last post - because certain devices work most effectively in one direction, and this problem is electrical not a simple case of matching connectors or adapters. There is no TRS involved in this connection. (TRS and XLR are electrically identical.)
To use your zone output for this purpose you need to insert this: Whirlwind IMP Pad -40dB inline with the XLR feeding the wall plate. I do not however, think it is practical for you to be swapping in and out of the feed with the house mic. I would leave the house mic connected without interruption and simply use your own system where music is required.
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Going back to venue to determine actual length of XLR cable needed to hook up a third speaker in the second section at the mid-point of that room, along the wall of course. LOL That may be the better option. I can run it via the Zone or from one of my Evox 8 speakers. From the Zone would make more sense as I can control the volume more easily. Too bad it isn't a straight line distance from DJ setup to the spot in the second section. I'm forced to go along the outside walls vs. hypotenuse of the triangle, so to speak. I've got 200 feet of xlr cable (100 ft. + two 50 ft.) plus several 25 ft. cables. The only issue that might be a problem is when I plug the satellite speaker into the wall in the second section. I might get a "hum" probably. It is a bit annoying when there is no music coming from it. But, I can use the Zone Volume Level control to bring it down to 0 db quickly. If I have extra cable left after positioning the first speaker, I may try and positioning the other satellite speaker. Good thing they are RCF as the speakers are very efficient. I'm not going to worry about the sound delay as I have no way to control that. It's only during cocktail and dinner and special program music that I would use the satellite speaker(s)...and maybe during dancing. I can always power off the satellite speaker or speakers when dancing begins.
You can run the XLR up to something like 600FT.
You should have your speakers set to "line" level input to minimize audible noise and reduce minor ground loop hum that is well below your signal strength.
If you get a ground loop hum by plugging in the third speaker remotely, try using a grounding adapter to lift the remote power cord ground (not the best, but might work.) You can also use extension cords to try other outlets within reach - you might get lucky and hit one on the same leg as your system. If that doesn't work use an extension cord to get all your gear plugged into the same circuit.
A ground loop hum will generally NOT vary with the volume control. This would only happen if the hum had been added to a feed from an upstream system. For example if you have a ground loop in your system and then you feed the house system - the hum will be fixed in your system, but will vary with volume in the house system. You can even create a secondary and third loop through your connection to house system - in which case you hear a fixed hum everywhere, masking the underlying house hum that varies with volume. The hum will not go away unless you identify ALL three loops and correct them. Add a video link and you might now have 6 ground loops 3 of which also bleed into the house feed.
Trick or Treat.There is also an isolation transformer you can insert in the XLR line to break a ground loop - but, we've already discussed more than enough gadgets to make you dangerous.
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Many thanks to the sound engineers on the forum. I've learned plenty since posting this thread and I'm sure others here have too.
You're correct. With all the gadgets that have been recommended, somebody could be dangerous.
It's interesting how much knowledge those with the know are willing to impart on this forum. Tigger, your idea of running cable around the room ended up making good sense. I've determined that I have close to 400 ft. of XLR cable, varying lengths. I even have several hundred feet of 1/4 TRS cable too, but I don't use it anymore since I have the Active speakers.
I'll report back after the gig and take some photos too of the event space. Should be an interesting day.
I may have to get a grounding adapter. Do you mean a two prong plug that plugs into the wall and the 3-prong plug (w/ground) connects to it?
You're correct. With all the gadgets that have been recommended, somebody could be dangerous.
It's interesting how much knowledge those with the know are willing to impart on this forum. Tigger, your idea of running cable around the room ended up making good sense. I've determined that I have close to 400 ft. of XLR cable, varying lengths. I even have several hundred feet of 1/4 TRS cable too, but I don't use it anymore since I have the Active speakers.
I'll report back after the gig and take some photos too of the event space. Should be an interesting day.
I may have to get a grounding adapter. Do you mean a two prong plug that plugs into the wall and the 3-prong plug (w/ground) connects to it?
FYI - from an electrical standpoint - the 3 prong plug doesn't mean anything is properly grounded. Circuit testers can give you an idea if it's properly wired - but it still may not be grounded properly.
Problem with the GC $30 box is it is strictly mono .. so you'll need to output from a single zone channel (the 2 1/4 jacks are in parallel and not a summing input) .. so if the zone output has a pan control or mono switch, you're good .. otherwise you'll need to have 2 of them or move up the line.
Wow, great discussion (and I found myself agreeing with Bob a lot????????)...
That Rane document is a life-saver, and is a standard in the industry-- download or bookmark it. One other tip (simple) pertaining to Rick's original question that I've found helpful (that I didn't see anyone mention): Always go with an attenuated signal (on the lower end, rather than near "yellow" or "red") when trying out a possible crazy mismatch like this. Whether it's a line/mic level thing, or impedance mismatch, or both, or just an improperly set gain on the other guy's mixer, starting out extremely conservative when feeding like that is always a good idea. When you are using multiple mixer/fader and input/output sections, it becomes critical, as the possibility of mismatch goes up exponentially with each connection. Way back in the day, I worked in radio, and I was always taught to send everything from the channels and the main output pretty hot (peaking near "zero" on a standard VU). An experienced engineer taught me to look at things differently-- "Don't set yourself up for distortion from the get-go," he said. "What do you mean?", says I. "You're a musician; think," he replied. "How do guitar players set-up distortion on their amps?" By overdriving the input, and adjusting the output volume to taste, I thought to myself, and then it clicked, and I have mixed differently from that day hence. You don't need to know all of the math to know that "less is more" in most situations.
To TwinSpin's issue, I'd agree that going with your own set-up (eschewing house sound entirely) would be better; that gives you all of the control. If they go for that, it's a simple fix. The issue becomes a major problem if they tell you that you must patch into their system. We used to play a club like that years ago, and the guy had all of this cobbled together antiquated crap, but he always (week after week) blamed the bands and their equipment when things went bad. He refused to entertain the idea that his stuff was crap that was wired wrong...
GJ
That Rane document is a life-saver, and is a standard in the industry-- download or bookmark it. One other tip (simple) pertaining to Rick's original question that I've found helpful (that I didn't see anyone mention): Always go with an attenuated signal (on the lower end, rather than near "yellow" or "red") when trying out a possible crazy mismatch like this. Whether it's a line/mic level thing, or impedance mismatch, or both, or just an improperly set gain on the other guy's mixer, starting out extremely conservative when feeding like that is always a good idea. When you are using multiple mixer/fader and input/output sections, it becomes critical, as the possibility of mismatch goes up exponentially with each connection. Way back in the day, I worked in radio, and I was always taught to send everything from the channels and the main output pretty hot (peaking near "zero" on a standard VU). An experienced engineer taught me to look at things differently-- "Don't set yourself up for distortion from the get-go," he said. "What do you mean?", says I. "You're a musician; think," he replied. "How do guitar players set-up distortion on their amps?" By overdriving the input, and adjusting the output volume to taste, I thought to myself, and then it clicked, and I have mixed differently from that day hence. You don't need to know all of the math to know that "less is more" in most situations.
To TwinSpin's issue, I'd agree that going with your own set-up (eschewing house sound entirely) would be better; that gives you all of the control. If they go for that, it's a simple fix. The issue becomes a major problem if they tell you that you must patch into their system. We used to play a club like that years ago, and the guy had all of this cobbled together antiquated crap, but he always (week after week) blamed the bands and their equipment when things went bad. He refused to entertain the idea that his stuff was crap that was wired wrong...
GJ
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When you plug both channels into the parallel loop you are essentially using the input as a 'Y' cable. (Don't tell Canute.) It will passively sum the two inputs and create some minor loss/cancellation but over-all works very well with unbalanced Hi-Z signals. (You cannot do this effectively with Low-Z balanced signals - as someone else is trying to do in another thread.)
I would not use his mono XLR zone output to feed the wall plate unless I had exactly the right pad(-40db) for the job.
That would be the correct way to calibrate your system meaning: 0db on your local meter corresponds to 0db on every meter downstream, and at the recording medium.
This is another common area of folly for mobile DJs with an assortments of random gear - they rely on the meter in their dj mixer which is not properly calibrated to the system downstream and hence drive their amp thermal or blow the speakers.
>>>>That would be the correct way to calibrate your system meaning: 0db on your local meter corresponds to 0db onevery meter downstream, and at the recording medium.<<<<
Yup; anyone with any kind of audio system or recording set-up can benefit from this simple, crucial, and often ignored procedure. Highly recommended, especially if you're running a lot of components that are of various makes/models/line/mic level/impedances. But you're supposed to use a test tone for that, I was really just referring to running hot signal on program material...
GJ
Yup; anyone with any kind of audio system or recording set-up can benefit from this simple, crucial, and often ignored procedure. Highly recommended, especially if you're running a lot of components that are of various makes/models/line/mic level/impedances. But you're supposed to use a test tone for that, I was really just referring to running hot signal on program material...
GJ
In the field you really have to know how to do the math because there may not be any onsite person who deals with the house system, and if there is they may not actually have access to it, or have any actual A/V knowledge beyond saying: "that's where we usually plug in the mic or an iPod."
The OP has a -12db pad on his zone output, however if the venue typically uses a dynamic mic than there volume levels are probably preset moderately high and their gain structure is preset for a -30db device. If the DJs zone output were a nominal +10db then at maximum attenuation he is still +28db higher than the house system expects him to be. He's not even gonna get his volume pot off zero. The OP said when he made this connection without any signal he heard a hum that varied with the volume. This was not a ground loop - it was the noise floor of his mixer so, imagine how loud the music would have been if a signal were present.
When someone points to an XLR jack on the wall and tells me: "that's where we plug in our microphone" my first response is: "show me your microphone." Because if you understand the math behind the kind of mic they use - you'll know what that XLR expects to see, and how it's likely been wired if anything other than the fully balanced standard.
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I think you could probable build your own into a 6" power cord tail or the ends of your existing power cords for no more than $20 in parts. I'm sure the reason there's no technical specs on these is because the filter is so easy and cheap to make. An EE could easy tell you what components you need for the filter.
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Measured room for amount of XLR cable needed to run satellite speakers so there is sound for the mid-to-back area of the room. Determined that 150-ft is needed to reach the first speaker. I can then run XLR from first satellite to second (less than 25-ft). Power outlets are less than 25-ft from each speaker on the wall. Would it be smart to include the subwoofer that matches each of the satellite speakers? If not, then the only subwoofer sound is coming from the Evox 8 system 150-ft away (at the other end of the room. I'm thinking that the sound might be a bit thin coming from each satellite top without the sub. The satellite can be powered from the subwoofer that is sitting in the V of the speaker stand, so still only need one 25-ft power cord to an outlet. I can't believe that will need an Ebtec for each of the satellite power outlet. It is doubtful that all electrical outlets in the room are connected to the one at the DJ station.
Of course the next issue is overall room sound and I shall begin a thread in the Private Show forum (Sound Control Using Satellite Speakers)
Of course the next issue is overall room sound and I shall begin a thread in the Private Show forum (Sound Control Using Satellite Speakers)