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Esoteric said:
You should always know your local codes. For example, for A/V equipment Texas has no licensing requirement. If I have to pull a permit I can get a special compensation for A/V equipment. But the minute I start running wire, conduit, putting in boxes, etc I subcontract to an electrical contractor, because at this point I don't want to be a licensed electrical installer. But know your local building codes!

Mike
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Another excellent point! In Minnesota you are not allowed to "sub-contract" to do electrical work. You must be licensed, period. In fact, we have to register all of our employees with the State and they are issued cards that they must carry on the jobsite at all times.

Local codes are very important too, they supercede the NEC (NFPA National Electric Code). For example, we ran into a village in Illinois that would not allow the use of plastic j-boxes, even though they are UL listed and allowed by the NEC. The AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) has the final word. Period.

Ben
 
NLFX Pro said:
Another excellent point! In Minnesota you are not allowed to "sub-contract" to do electrical work. You must be licensed, period. In fact, we have to register all of our employees with the State and they are issued cards that they must carry on the jobsite at all times.

Local codes are very important too, they supercede the NEC (NFPA National Electric Code). For example, we ran into a village in Illinois that would not allow the use of plastic j-boxes, even though they are UL listed and allowed by the NEC. The AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) has the final word. Period.

Ben
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Totally. Except when I have the final word. I think the NEC and local codes are too lax on some things and I have my own codes (my dad calls it the "right way"). But all my codes exceed local codes and the NEC.

Wow, I know a lot of contractors here in Texas that would have to add a lot of people to their payroll. Everything here in Texas gets subcontracted.

With your j-boxes, down here, if you run any kind of conduit you must use a metal box. Plastic boxes can only be used for low-voltage cable (which has no codes covering the way it is run).

Mike
 
Esoteric said:
Totally. Except when I have the final word. I think the NEC and local codes are too lax on some things and I have my own codes (my dad calls it the "right way"). But all my codes exceed local codes and the NEC.

Wow, I know a lot of contractors here in Texas that would have to add a lot of people to their payroll. Everything here in Texas gets subcontracted.

With your j-boxes, down here, if you run any kind of conduit you must use a metal box. Plastic boxes can only be used for low-voltage cable (which has no codes covering the way it is run).

Mike
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LOL... Yep, you're a "red state" and we're a "blue state". They even have a special division of inspectors just for power-limited (really no such thing as "low voltage", since NPLFA circuits can be up to 600V).

This Village in IL would not allow the use of plastic boxes, period. I wanted to use them for CAT5 for DSP wall controls... no dice.

Sorry for the hijack on the thread... maybe we should start a new thread just so Kris, Mike, Travis, Thunder and I can set-up a "back porch" and gossip about install war stories. LOL.

Ben
 
NLFX Pro said:
LOL... Yep, you're a "red state" and we're a "blue state". They even have a special division of inspectors just for power-limited (really no such thing as "low voltage", since NPLFA circuits can be up to 600V).

This Village in IL would not allow the use of plastic boxes, period. I wanted to use them for CAT5 for DSP wall controls... no dice.

Sorry for the hijack on the thread... maybe we should start a new thread just so Kris, Mike, Travis, Thunder and I can set-up a "back porch" and gossip about install war stories. LOL.

Ben
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No hijack at all...I appreciate your perspective - and everyones (okay even Mikes :sqrolleyes:). I don't carry any licenses in the state of MO but am looking into it. While I have completely wired many a house electrically, down the road I would most defintely sub contract all the electrical work ahead of the install. Like I said I don't have the time to get into this work big time but I really enjoy the small to medium sized stuff!

I just completed the first phase of my current install. We spent two days putting 28 LED fixtures all aroudn the bar, lit the bar up blue and everything else is DMX controlled (Can't believe how much a DMX slitter/booster and terminators helps on long runs). Really happy with the color scroll feature on these LED panels we used.

In two weeks we will continue with outdoor lighting then move inside for a complete sound system and some movers (he already has two truss sections installed) over the small dancefloor...having fun learning along the way.

The best part was we were cleaning up as his Thursday night crowd started filtering in and hearing all of them rave about the new lighting :sqbiggrin:
 
While I have the experience in electrical wiring I am not a licensed contractor for electrical. So I won't touch it anywhere but for my own home and business. In Virginia any electrical wiring connected directly to the electrical grid must be inspected and any installed in a commercial application must be installed by a licensed contractor.

Which is why I won't touch the instalation of the electrical runs for the lights. What I don't understand is why the fire marshal didn't see the drop cord situation in the ceiling of this center (we are talking about one of the biggest no nos in electrical wiring, unless the fire marshal just wasn't doing his job)

When I did the install for Club Rio's sound and lights we had an electrian come in and run recepticles for every single light including conduit from the DMX relay packs (8 4 channel units) to each individual light Altogether there were over 50 recepticles installed just for lighting.

There are saftey standards in all suspended applications that simply MUST be followed, they are all written in plain easy to understand english so there is no excuse for doing shoddy work by either a Pro or an Am!

As for doing work beyond what the local and national codes call for that is all fine and great but it can be veiwed by the inspectors as "not to code"!
 
I figured since I already hijacked the heck out of this thread (sorry :sqembarrassed:) I'd post a tribute to some of my very own install crew by showing a few serious poses, and then a couple of what they REALLY do (breaktime, and the "Captain" pose by Troy). LOL.

I'm only counting on the fact that they probably don't come to this forum. LOL.

Ben
 

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Ben, there should be some safety shots from the H-Town job we did. :)

Mike, I perfectly understand the sub-contracting portion. Pulling wire isn't anybody's favorite task, unless you love doing it? Eh?

I agree you should be trained and completely in the A/V industry to understand installation of sound systems... A wise person once told me, it is an extension of gigs. Sure there are some areas that mesh, but it is a completely different monster. This isn't the time to become a jack of all trades, master of none!

Knowing the right wire to use, CL2 or CL2P? Do you know? Safe practices... When Rigging, Safety Factors. Using of forged eye bolts. Use of spansets and not to use nylon spansets outdoors.

I once surveyed a job at an auto auction. They had the RS speakers rigged to the ceiling with a hook... I told the owner, what happens if somebody takes a ladder or poll and bumps it unknowingly, it could fall on their head and cause a BIG lawsuit... They have yet to repair it, I guess it falls upon deaf ears...

Mike, as you know in Texas, anything considered high voltage requires a license... Which takes YEARS to get... You can run low voltage in conduit as long as you do not run it together with high voltage... It's unlawful.

Furthermore if you are real serious about A/V you will yearn to get your hands on as many specs, figures, model no.'s, new methods of installation, etc. You gotta live and breathe the A/V industry. Not just put it on the shelf when it is time to bid out a job.

(Mike I switched several times from directing stuff to you to not, don't take offense my brother)
 
There may be stipulations for residential work... As long as you are the home-owner. Again this work was performed in the outskirts and rural areas deep in the heart of Texas... They kinda live by their own rules there ;) ... Some believe the south won the civil war ;)
 
NLFX Pro said:
I figured since I already hijacked the heck out of this thread (sorry :sqembarrassed:) I'd post a tribute to some of my very own install crew by showing a few serious poses, and then a couple of what they REALLY do (breaktime, and the "Captain" pose by Troy). LOL.

I'm only counting on the fact that they probably don't come to this forum. LOL.

Ben
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Hey! Those look like my guys! *lol*

Except I must say, I have an electrician that doesn't know the meaning of the word break. He did the entire sanctuary rough in in 9 hours.

Mike
 
Travis B said:
Ben, there should be some safety shots from the H-Town job we did. :)

Mike, I perfectly understand the sub-contracting portion. Pulling wire isn't anybody's favorite task, unless you love doing it? Eh?

I agree you should be trained and completely in the A/V industry to understand installation of sound systems... A wise person once told me, it is an extension of gigs. Sure there are some areas that mesh, but it is a completely different monster. This isn't the time to become a jack of all trades, master of none!

Knowing the right wire to use, CL2 or CL2P? Do you know? Safe practices... When Rigging, Safety Factors. Using of forged eye bolts. Use of spansets and not to use nylon spansets outdoors.

I once surveyed a job at an auto auction. They had the RS speakers rigged to the ceiling with a hook... I told the owner, what happens if somebody takes a ladder or poll and bumps it unknowingly, it could fall on their head and cause a BIG lawsuit... They have yet to repair it, I guess it falls upon deaf ears...

Mike, as you know in Texas, anything considered high voltage requires a license... Which takes YEARS to get... You can run low voltage in conduit as long as you do not run it together with high voltage... It's unlawful.

Furthermore if you are real serious about A/V you will yearn to get your hands on as many specs, figures, model no.'s, new methods of installation, etc. You gotta live and breathe the A/V industry. Not just put it on the shelf when it is time to bid out a job.

(Mike I switched several times from directing stuff to you to not, don't take offense my brother)
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No offense taken man. I get plenty of work. I am actually trying to get out of the install business and into the design business. I still do them and probably will for a couple of more years. But I want to get to the point where I design the look and then subcontract the whole install out to someone like Ben.

Yeah, my dad was a Master Electrician (he is retired) of 30+ years and a licensed mechanical contractor and my cousin is a licensed GC who does industrial and commercial work. If I need to know a code, I know where to go.

I never run high voltage (my clients contract out the initial wire pull out to my electrical subcontractor), and I subcontract out all electrical pulls. The only thing I do through my company is temporary cable or low voltage cable (which has no applicable NEC codes and no local codes governing it in Dallas).

Its rough the first time you use a company, I understand. You can go back and forth on it. But no one has regretted contracting me yet. I am sending out design papers (all my clients get a lighting manual with ALL their paperwork in it) to a church in Virginia tomorrow. I have another one going out next Monday. I am not doing either of these installs, they are just the designs and system specs. But if you ever want to throw work my way, I won't turn it down.

Mike
 
Great thread guys....

Couple things...

1. Kris, obviously be careful in your work, and protect yourself. Sounds like a lot of fun, and it will probably be really rewarding.
2. Mike, great advice, and good coaching. Some of the words you have used are stern, but in the right context, taken to heart. Yes, most djs should not be installers (me for sure). Good to see you encourage a guy.....
3. Thunder (not sure your name)...good advice as well. Where is the Club Rio you speak of?

Once again, a great thread.....full of good info, sharing, and knowledge.
 
Esoteric said:
I am actually trying to get out of the install business and into the design business.
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See... I always knew you were smarter than me. LOL. Consultants make more money and incur less liability than installers. Someday maybe I'll wise up. Until then, keep sending me gigs. :)


Esoteric said:
The only thing I do through my company is temporary cable or low voltage cable (which has no applicable NEC codes and no local codes governing it in Dallas).
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Mike - I know you said "in Dallas". I just want to post this so that others are not confused. The NEC DOES contain codes regarding "low voltage" (properly termed "power limited" or Class 2 and Class 3 circuits) and temporary cabling. Sections 100 and 300 apply to all circuits and 500, 600 and 800 are pretty much dedicated to Class 2 and Class 3 circuits, with I believe 640 being dedicated solely to Audio systems. There ARE codes and they ARE enforced, if not initially during the install phase. Should there ever be a problem you definitely don't want your stuff to be found to be "not to code". Could the insurance adjuster here please chime in on what would happen to a claim if workmanship was found to not meet code? I'm curious on a state by state basis how it would be handled. In Minnesota it is actually illegal to hire an unlicensed contractor to do an install.

Ben
 
You guys need to move to Mexico :D:D:D:D:D
 
DJ SVO said:
You guys need to move to Mexico :D:D:D:D:D
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Now Jacob.... you're just supporting the lack of codes because it keeps YOU busy in YOUR line of work. ;)

Do you know the guys that did these?

moron.jpg
Overfilled_Box.bmp

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Tabaco_Box.bmp

Extension_to_wire.jpg


Ben
 
LOL!!!! Ben, that stuff actually looks nice compared to the stuff I've seen. It can get scary and you should see all the people stealing electricity by splicing into the electric lines in the distribution posts. When they rewired the house for my electrical needs I actually hired an electrical engineer to put in 2 200 AMP three phase service boxes and power distribution, that way I can run all my light's and sound in the garden and run the lights in the house so the kitchen and service rooms can be used by the caterers.

Everything was wired properly without having to worry about running out of juice. The electrical company was asking if I planned un running a factory or some sort of industrial business out of the house :D:D:D:D:D:D I simply told them it was none of their business :D:D:D:D:D
 
Damn Ben!
I have seen some that look almost as bad, but not like the bottom pic good lord that person was a complete IDIOT!

The first pic I have seen low voltage done that way but never high voltage lines! No wonder Your state is so strict (way too many jack legs in the past)

Pic number two, I only wish I had taken a pic before the electrian came in to run the boxes for the lights in the bolwing center.

2 recepticles coming out of them were two drop lines with a three-way heads one light pluged into each of the three-ways, from two of each the two three-ways another drop line running with three-ways going to four more lights. Repeat until you have 16 lights connected to a single 15 amp recepticle, (now come the good part) in the breaker box (I guess because the 15 amp breaker couldn't carry the load) they had put in a 30 amp single pole breaker!

This was a fire hoping to happen!!!!!!!!!!
 
NLFX Pro said:
See... I always knew you were smarter than me. LOL. Consultants make more money and incur less liability than installers. Someday maybe I'll wise up. Until then, keep sending me gigs. :)




Mike - I know you said "in Dallas". I just want to post this so that others are not confused. The NEC DOES contain codes regarding "low voltage" (properly termed "power limited" or Class 2 and Class 3 circuits) and temporary cabling. Sections 100 and 300 apply to all circuits and 500, 600 and 800 are pretty much dedicated to Class 2 and Class 3 circuits, with I believe 640 being dedicated solely to Audio systems. There ARE codes and they ARE enforced, if not initially during the install phase. Should there ever be a problem you definitely don't want your stuff to be found to be "not to code". Could the insurance adjuster here please chime in on what would happen to a claim if workmanship was found to not meet code? I'm curious on a state by state basis how it would be handled. In Minnesota it is actually illegal to hire an unlicensed contractor to do an install.

Ben
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There are certainly codes regarding them. But there is no coding about their runs necessarily. For example we don't run DMX cable in conduit (and it meets code).

But this is what is critical is to know the coding!!! And residential coding is different from industrial/commercial (which is why I don't count residential remodeling as experience when it comes to things like this).

Yeah, here in Texas the liability for consultants is literally none as long as you don't make specific recommendations on rigging, etc. When I do consult, I just spec out what needs to go where and leave all specific decisions up to the installer.

Mike
 
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