Religion?????

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Umm Ron I used God cause it fits the masses that you attacked with your know it approach. I happen to know much about many ethnic religions. In some cases other religions lay even more blame or control for the individual for instance Budhism. You are attempting to overpower me Ron but it wont happen you can taunt, belittle and attempt to put me below but I choose to not allow that. Call me JT Weeble.
 
It would be boring if people were good and not evil? God couldn't create people with free will who were nice to each other? There would be no art or music or humor and it would be boring? that's nonsense. God is all powerful and he created us in his image. Isn't his image one of goodness? Is that what you see in the world?

If god created us in his image does that mean that god can be mean and cruel too?

If god is all powerful don't you think he could communicate with his creations in a way that ALL human beings regardless of their language, culture or geographical orientation could understand clearly and know the same truth? What do you see in the world? Is this the case?

Some people think there are spirits and demons in rocks and trees and lurking in the forest. They can't see them but they KNOW they are there just like you know your god.
How do you know that their idea of god isn't true?

What if the Hindus have the true and right religion and yours is all wrong? They believe just a strongly in their religion as you do in yours.

If there was one all powerful god wouldn't he want everyone to know and understand the truth? If he is all powerful it would seem that he could do that easily. Why wouldn't he? Wouldn't that make sense?

You think your bible has all the answers, but other people in other religions think their religious book has all the answers. Who is right? Why? Why is your religion better than theirs? If they are all equally good then why are they different? Wouldn't there be some universal truth that everyone could see and recognize? Why would god want it to be so mysterious and difficult to understand?
 
You are GOD? Up above a couple of posts? That's you? because that's who my remarks were directed at, not you. I thought that was clear.

I'm not trying to belittle you Jon, I'm trying to make people think, it's a debate, a discussion. I just have a very forceful way of expressing myself. Rather than really thinking about what I say, people choose to be offended. That's what happens when a person's beliefs are challenged.
 
Actually my good friend Ron I believe almost any you can mention have but a very tiny inkling of what the real deal is and likely not restricted to one or the other.I actually believe all have their place. We are incapable beings likely of being able to interpret or fathom the real Scheme. Once again I was using God as you had eluded a superior being to be, as did several others in here.
 
and Im no more offended reading Rons posts or Gods. Thanks for coming out though. Likely not many here have ever seen me even remotely offended.Life is too short to hate. WE HAVE CHOICE TO MAKE LIFE AS IT CAN BE, or make the best of it or we can waller in it.
 
actually Hugh I disagree with it being an interruption.

I call it giving all accounts. Kris is searching and likely even though in life likely he has seen more comment or reaction against than for and so it truly shows how powerful his hunger really is. :sqwink:
 
Not so much the content. I have discussed this with many people over the years. But the tone. If a preacher came on here and discussed his/her point of view with the tone Oz is currently using, would the hackles of others come up? Most likely.

Think, explore, discuss, challenge, seek, etc. But respect.
 
Ron Im sorry you are an angry man and that you want to pin a Black book to me when you arent even sure I have read it.
By the way I have on several occasions. Anyhow Im happy you love your Subs.
 
Hugh being a man with your training from the past you should know that the non believers of your faith can be less than kind in the anger they have for folks at peace. Not to say this about Ron but his agressive responses arent really as bad as some Ive heard directed in like.
 
I have heard worse, too. In fact, if they don't come maybe the message is too sugar coated. You know, all the bones removed to prevent choking?

I was bummed that such a sensetive topic was being handled so well by the board members for so long. It seemed to jump off the tracks. That's my point.

On the side, I am always amazed that someone can be so passionate about their belief that those who hold a differing belief cannot by rights be as convinced about theirs as he is about his ( I mean "he" and "his" in the generic case here).

People live by faith in something because the irrefutible (SP?) proof for most things is not there. Their faith is just not in God at times.

As for the tenability of proof beyond doubt, see Rene Descartes. Interesting read.
 
Challenge your own thinking, examine it, explore other ideas, accept that you are a product of you upbringing and early indoctrination, consider the possibility that what we "know" may not necessarily be the same as what other people "know".

Just because you think with all your mind and heart and soul that something is true doesn't make it so. Some little kids feel that way about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

Remember, someone on the other side of the globe feels the same way about a totally different concept of god and religion. Just like I have a totally different idea of the whole big picture than you do. Some people think that strapping a bomb to their chest will get them into heaven with 70 virgins. You probably think they're crazy. They think that you're an infidel because you believe Jesus is god. Does any of this make any sense? Not to me...
 
One thing that really struck me this past weekend as I sat and listened to the father preaching...then I looked at everyone listening to his every word and I wondered (wished) I could "believe" so freeley as they all were. Then I thought about my wife :sqerr: She is ALWAYS right, and I'm always wrong :sqembarrassed: Seriously, directions....simple judgement calls....even "who's singing this obscure song from the 80's"...I'm never right. So why do I think I know for a fact there cannot be a God when I'm not even right with the simple stuff. I have such a scientific slant to everything that it seems laughable that something other than evolution has a hand in our world around us. I don't know where this little journey will take me...maybe back to square one - but maybe not :sqwink:
 
knardini said:
One thing that really struck me this past weekend as I sat and listened to the father preaching...then I looked at everyone listening to his every word and I wondered (wished) I could "believe" so freeley as they all were. Then I thought about my wife :sqerr: She is ALWAYS right, and I'm always wrong :sqembarrassed: Seriously, directions....simple judgement calls....even "who's singing this obscure song from the 80's"...I'm never right. So why do I think I know for a fact there cannot be a God when I'm not even right with the simple stuff. I have such a scientific slant to everything that it seems laughable that something other than evolution has a hand in our world around us. I don't know where this little journey will take me...maybe back to square one - but maybe not :sqwink:
Click to expand...

If you want any material to show where I came to (not where I came from - don't like to hate) PM me.
 
Ron you are portraying that for which you speak. Im totally the opposite. Someone including you lives on another distant part of this small planet. I said it early on and will revert to it once more. For your benefit. ( Patience is a virtue) I said '' Likely we are incapable of fathoming the real story yet I think we all have a glimpse of the big picture one tiny chunk of thought each of us.
 
If you want to simply dismiss what I said as the ranting of an angry man you are so missing the point and it shows you gave very little thought to the questions that I posed or the ideas that I offered. I can see it was a waste of time and most people won't even bother to read my arguments or consider if they have any validity or merit. Why bother anyways? You already know what you know and have made up your minds.

You're not interested in whether there are any other ways of understanding life and the world. You won't debate. Why debate when you can just be insulted and end the conversation. The easiest thing to do is say that I'm mean and angry.

The truth is I challenged your beliefs and that's what makes you uncomfortable. I don't care. I didn't insult you, you chose to take offense rather than actually think about what I had to say and give a good argument why I don't know what I'm talking about. Your loss. I'm done, I said what I wanted to say. This thread will probably get deleted anyways.
 
Ron,

It's not as you say, at least on my end. I love debate. I have a BA in philosophy, for God's sake! It's just that the way you came across (in my opinion) was not as someone who wanted debate or discussion. I just don't like to respond to that.

There are answers to your questions if you're interested. To me, you just sound like someone who is convinced of your opinion and won't listen, or entertain other ideas. I may be wrong. Lord knows that is true often, but I haven't seen it yet.

The funny thing is that this attitude of "you are set in your ways despite the other point of view having merit" is what believers in religions are often accused of. Maybe what you have is a set of beliefs about God, eternity, whatever you call it, and have a hard time listening yourself?

Just a guess. Have a great night. It's late here and I'm tired.
 
Actually I enjoy having these conversations. I have them all the time with folks I work with. Some are believers and some are not. Long ago I gave up trying to CONVINCE people. God either calls people to himself or he does not. We plant a seed and he waters it. If it grows only he knows if it does not? Well only he knows. I can see why many people would have a hard time with belief. Just look around you have many faiths even in christianity saying that everyone of them is right :sqerr:. So many that don't believe look at that and say look they don't even know. And they all think there right. The funny thing that so many people don't understand is that many religions are linked such as the jews and the muslims and the christians.

And even they all fight and kill each other. The thing is God did not bring sin into the world, satan did. God did let his son come and die and gave a world that has freedom of will the ability to choose.

But if you don't believe in God you certainly won't believe in satan so there again is a catch 22. Someones lack of faith does not hurt mine at all.

In fact If people who really hate God, would simply read the bible they would see that Jesus said this would happen the funny thing is when people kill christians and hate christians and depise everything they stand for.

All they do is make most christians believe even more because a living Jesus at the time said this would happen. He also said that in the end times many would come in his name say that they are the messiah. I think that one thing that really made me start to look at christianity was prophecy.

I started seeing the evidence and it changed my life. God really only gives us 2 choice that really matter. Believe or not believe. God is either exactly what he says he is or God is the biggest sham upon the face of the earth.

Freedom of choice is a gift from God, Unlike angels and such who live with God we have again only what it comes down to FAITH.

Ok here is a little thing on faith. It is a long read and is pasted and copied if you wish to read it then read on if not then suit yourself. But it will give you the idea of how many christains think. I have read the comments here and again I'm extremley imperfect but if you have the time read this take the 5 minutes that it will take and it will give you a very good insite to how many christians think and why. Most of the stuff here I agree with 100 percent and some is church doctrine but its great about faith and thats why I posted it.

Faith in God

Posted February 13th, 2007 by michael

Introduction
We have seen that God has provided a marvellous salvation from all the consequences of man's rebellion. This salvation is to be received through repentance and faith. God expects us to change our allegiance. We must now love Him and serve Him - not our old selfish and corrupt desires. He wants to set us free from every oppression. But as well as this change of allegiance or repentance we need to believe God and His promises with a living faith. In this lesson we will consider what it means to have faith in God.
What is Faith?
What Faith is not
Faith is not religion. Many times people say "We have our faith". What they mean is this: "We have our religious ideas and doctrines, our traditions, our ways of doing things passed down through the generations. Don't you try to change them." This is not the Biblical idea of faith.
Faith is not mental assent. It is not agreeing with your mind, "Yes, that is true." Many professing Christians believe mentally that the Bible is the Word of God, but this faith does not change the way they live. It is not a faith that can save. (James 2:14)
Even demons have that kind of faith. They know and believe that God exists (James 2:19) - and tremble. They have no loving confidence in God.
Faith is not a way to manipulate God. It is not a power by which we make God do what WE want when otherwise He would be unwilling to do that thing. It is not a kind of magic through which we make God into our servant!
Faith is not hope, nor positive desire. Hope is good, and relates to the future. Faith, however, takes the promise as done NOW. Many people have hope and are anxiously looking for results, but they lack the settled confidence and present assurance which faith has.
What Faith Is
In the general sense of the word, to have faith is to believe in something or someone, to fully trust, to be so confident that you base your actions on what you believe. To have faith is to be fully convinced of the truthfulness and reliability of that in which you believe.
Faith in God then, is having the kind of trust and confidence in God and in Christ that leads you to commit your whole soul to Him as Saviour (Justifier, Cleanser, Healer, Deliverer) and Lord (Master, King).
The NIV translation says, "Faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1 NIV).
The NKJV of the Bible says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1).
Faith is a spiritual substance. When you have this spiritual substance in you, it communicates to you a certain inner knowing that the thing you are hoping for is certainly established, even before you see any material evidence that it has happened.
Faith is a spiritual force. Faith in God is a response to God's Word which moves God to act. Jesus said in Mark 11:23, "For assuredly I say to you, whoever SAYS to this mountain, 'Be removed and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but BELIEVES that those things he SAYS will be done, he will HAVE whatever he SAYS." Words mixed with the real, pure faith can and will move mountains or any other problem that we face.
Faith in God must be from the heart. It is not merely intellectual. It is spiritual. "For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10)
Faith causes you to know in your heart before you see with your eyes. "For we walk by faith, not by sight." (2Cor 5.7)
Some say, "Seeing is believing." Once you see the thing hoped for already existing in the natural order, you don't need faith.
Hope is a condition for faith. Hope is "a positive unwavering expectation of good". Hope is for the mind (1 Thessalonians 5:8; Hebrews 6:19), an anchor for the soul. It keeps us in the place where we can believe, but it is not in itself "faith". Yet, without hope there are no "things hoped for", and therefore there cannot be faith.
Through faith we can know we have the answer to our prayer before we see anything change in the natural order (1 John 5:14,15). Jesus said, "Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." (Mk 11:24). God expects us, even commands us, to believe that our petitions are answered by God AT THE MOMENT WE MAKE THEM. We must believe that the response is immediately sent WHEN we pray. Faith is like the confirmation slip in our hearts that the goods are on the way. We have that confirmation slip instantly from God. We sense it in our hearts. The manifestation of those goods, the answer received, comes later as long as we are patient and do not throw away our confidence. (Hebrews 10:35-39; Hebrews 6:12)
Faith is like a cheque. All you have to do is hold on to the cheque, go to the bank to present it and you can confidently expect the money to appear in your account after a certain time. If you throw the cheque away the money will not be put in your account. God is trustworthy and always has resources to back his promises.
Living faith always has corresponding actions. We talk what we really believe, and we act according to what we really believe. The heroes of faith like Abraham were considered men of faith because they acted on what God showed them. They acted on their faith. (Hebrews 11:17-38, James 2:21-23).
To live in faith means to do and say what you believe is right, without doubting.
Faith is a rest. It is compatible with inner peace. It is not "trying to believe". To say that you are "trying to believe" God is to say that you don't believe Him. The man who is "trying to believe" may be sincere, but he does not have faith in that area yet.
Why We Must Believe God
Why must we believe God? Hebrews 11:6 says, "But without faith it is impossible to please God, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
"Whatever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23) and God hates sin. When we don't believe God, we treat Him like He is a liar. Remember that He is everywhere and sees all things. He is hurt when we act like He doesn't exist, or that He will not do what He promised to do. Only when we have confidence in God and His Word can we please Him.
Lack of faith leads to lack of obedience. God's commands can only really be fulfilled through faith. Without confidence in God's promises a man will never really do what God says. Lack of obedience in God's eyes is rebellion. Such lack of obedience dishonors God and surely deserves to be punished.
"The just shall live by faith" (Romans 1:17). We must live by faith in order to be considered by God "right" and "correct". Otherwise we stand condemned.
Those who don't believe God inevitably believe in something else. Either religious tradition, or their understanding of science, or what the women's magazine says, or what their next door neighbour tells them, the education system, the mass-media or a combination of all these things. God is not impressed. "Professing to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:22) In fact, those who don't fully believing God end up believing the devil somewhere along the track. It is very possible to believe what the devil says without even believing that he exists! Satan is speaking through so many philosophies and religions without openly declaring himself. Not too many actually know they are trusting the words of satan and his demons.
God is therefore righteous in expecting us to believe in Him and what He says. Who is better qualified to tell us the truth and help us to find answers for life and eternity?
Benefits of Faith.
The Bible teaches us that genuine faith is "more precious than gold that perishes" (1 Peter 1:7). Indeed such faith is going to be "tested by fire". You can expect difficulties and persecutions in your life of faith, as well as blessings. Therefore to encourage you to hold onto and develop your faith, we will consider some of the benefits of faith.
1. Faith brings salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9). Whosever believes in Him has eternal life. (John 3:16), and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24). The just shall live by faith. (Romans 1:17)
2. Faith brings answers to prayer. "And whatever things you ask in prayer, really believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:22). Since God tells us to pray for our daily bread (Matthew 6:11), faith is therefore a key to our material provision.
3. Faith brings all the benefits of salvation into our lives (Ephesians 2:8,9). This includes healing, prosperity, peace, love, joy (1 Peter 1:8), deliverance from demons and the curse, sanctification of the mind and emotions (the salvation of the soul) and any other benefit which the word of God promises to us.
4. Faith is a spiritual force through which our ministry for Christ becomes effective. (Mark 11:23; Matthew 17:19,20). Faith is a major key to ministry success. It brings to you what you need for your ministry, and by imparting it to others through your life and your ministry of God's Word, you enable them to receive the blessings of God's grace mentioned above.
5. In particular, faith is the major key for an effective healing and deliverance ministry. Jesus Christ "the same yesterday, today and forever" lives in the Christian (Hebrews 13:8, Galatians 2:20), and through the Christian wants to reveal the power of salvation to men in a way they can see and feel. In this way, our evangelism concerning the Kingdom of God will not be in talk, but in power (1 Corinthians 4:20).
How to Develop Faith
We see how important faith is. Yet some people despair here, thinking that they don't have faith. Yet faith comes (Romans 10:17), it can grow and develop. If you are not full of faith today, that doesn't mean you will be that way all your life. You can choose to be a person of faith!
Here are some keys to developing faith.
1. Listen to the Word of God as much as possible. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Romans 10:17). Constant attention to the Word of God produces faith, especially if we attend to it with an open heart and mind. The book of Proverbs encourages us to constantly keep the Word in our hearts and to keep our attention on it (Proverbs 4:20-22). Health is one of the benefits promised.
What we listen to affects what we believe. If we listen to the TV more than to the Word, we will believe the lies of the world more than we will believe what God says. Constant attention to lies produces deception. Eventually the mind will accept something if that thing is heard often enough and persuasively enough. That is why we should keep hearing the Word of God, through preaching, Christian tapes, confession of the Word, daily fellowship with godly Christians. This will cause us eventually to believe the truth from our hearts.
2. Realise that every believer has been given a measure of faith by God. (Romans 12:3). We just have to use and develop what God has given. We must put it into action.
3. Pray in tongues and be full of the Spirit (Jude 20). We will look at this later. If you have been baptised in the Spirit as the disciples were in the book of Acts, you should pray and praise in tongues often because through this you "edify yourself" (1 Corinthians 14:4) and "build yourself up in your most holy faith". Praying in tongues is a key to being full of the Spirit. Since faith is a fruit of the Spirit, all things things are related together.
4. Obey God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is as you walk that you gain strength. God will not reveal greater things to you until you are faithful in the things He is showing you NOW. Therefore obedience to the Spirit and what He is showing you through the Word or through your conscience is important in the development of your faith. You cannot have living faith without taking some practical steps of obedience. Act on what God is saying!
5. Give thanks. Give thanks for the results before you see. Don't complain - that shows you doubt God's love and God's answer to your situation. Give thanks in all situations (1 Thessalonians 5:18).
6. Develop a life of praise and worship. Praise drives the powers of darkness away and brings the throne of God into your circumstances. Praising God is an act of faith and helps your faith to grow. It is commanded (Hebrews 13:15). Worship is
 
Me, I tend to think that the key to our interpersonal relationships is to be TOLERANT of each others beliefs. We can express an opinion or belief that challenges anothers, BUT, that seems to cause a problem when either the recipient of the opinion who may be intolerant of a differing opinion, or when the person giving the opinion believes so zealously that they refuse to accept the fact that you are not swayed to their side.

There are many roads of faith, and each person will individually find their own path. Yes, you should hear from people of many different faiths, and lack thereof, and make your own decision. Sometimes the path of knowledge will lead you away from religion...or perhaps you may find a path that allows you to worship in a non religious manner. One does not necessarily need an organized religion to worship whoever in ones own manner.

The key is to listen...and study...see what the alternatives are, and use your common sense, combined with the opinions of ones you trust, and do what feels right for you.

I think that open ended comments like this are more what Kris was looking for rather than a debate about specific religions. When we get a fervor about our beliefs - or lack of, mixed with a tablespoon of intolerance, that is when the arguments start. Note how I have managed to express my opinions without ever mentioning my beliefs.
 
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