Condenser mics anyone?

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rickryan.com

rickryan.com

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Dec 9, 2009
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Call me crazy, but I'm really wanting to rebuild my recording studio. At one time, I was starting to get some decent projects in but the ex-wife just sucked the joy out of it and I had to give up the dream. I recently bought an interface box that comes with Presonus (I used cakewalk before). I also ordered some headphones that will be here this week, then I ran into a Donner DC87, which is a clone of a Neuman U87. Yeah, I know a $130 knock-off is not the same as a $3k Neuman but the reviews look good so I ordered it and it should be here on Saturday. Eventually, I want to build out a new studio and start taking on some recording projects, locally. Still have a ton of great session pickers in Nashville and it's a lot easier to farm out parts remotely. I know it's going to be a big expense and a longer-term project to get tooled up but there's a fair amount of prospects in this area and having the Nashville name/connections should make it viable as YET ANOTHER side hustle. Hey, who needs sleep?

Here's the mic. Interested in any comments from the peanut gallery.

 
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Rick, the easiest way to make a small fortune in the studio world is to start with a big fortune. Many of my friends have studios. Few of them make a profit on them but they have the addiction. Besides, it is expensive to learn the business while renting studio time.

Good mics are important for studios. The mic is basically the first and most important sound processor in the recording process. Each mic has its own characteristic sound which is created by a combination of its frequency response, angular response, transient response, sensitivity, max SPL and self-noise. A mic good for a bass drum is probably not be a popular choice for vocals or horns. This is why most studios advertise what they have in their mic locker. The U47 and U87 have legendary status for tube mics. The RCA-77 and RCA-44 ribbon mics or modern equivalents are legendary ribbon mics. The AKG-C414 and Sennheiser MD-421 are also quite popular condenser mics. The Shure SM7 is a popular vocal dynamic mic. Of course you will need different mics for drums and guitar cabinets.

The one thing a mic cannot do is fix the acoustics of the studio it is used in. Every room has its own pattern of reflections and resonances. A small room will have strong early reflections that cannot be removed from a mix. However, a dead room is not ideal either. Performers need some reflections to guide their performance and the reflections make for a more natural blending of instrument sound. Since no two bands are the same, many studios are equipped with movable acoustic isolator panels and walls with movable surfaces that can be changed from a reflection/diffraction side to an absorption side as the situation needs.

I have several friends in the studio design business. It might be good to invest in some consultant help up front rather than take a bad design and then spend years chasing down and eliminating the acoustic demons. Besides, the studio world is competitive. If you say you have a studio designed by someone well known or someone that worked on other famous studios, you might stand out from the competition.
 
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The Donner mic is plastic, along with it's associated shock mount.
I would not buy this without actually using one first and finding sufficient reason to own one (in the form of a recurring customer request.)

If you're going to use a cheaper mic it should at least be convincing in every detail. For example, you could give an SM58 knock off to an amateur and if it looks and "feels" the part - and you can make it work with the shorter frequency range - they'll be happy with the results. But even a novice will find fault if the mic "feels" and looks cheap and that will typically override any realty in the mic element's actual ability to get decent sound.

Professionals in general are going to specify by rider which mics they want used on a project and in the long view you'll fare better with a good local source for high-end mic rental than purchasing knock-offs.
 
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sawdust123 said:
Rick, the easiest way to make a small fortune in the studio world is to start with a big fortune. Many of my friends have studios. Few of them make a profit on them but they have the addiction. Besides, it is expensive to learn the business while renting studio time.

Good mics are important for studios. The mic is basically the first and most important sound processor in the recording process. Each mic has its own characteristic sound which is created by a combination of its frequency response, angular response, transient response, sensitivity, max SPL and self-noise. A mic good for a bass drum is probably not be a popular choice for vocals or horns. This is why most studios advertise what they have in their mic locker. The U47 and U87 have legendary status for tube mics. The RCA-77 and RCA-44 ribbon mics or modern equivalents are legendary ribbon mics. The AKG-C414 and Sennheiser MD-421 are also quite popular condenser mics. The Shure SM7 is a popular vocal dynamic mic. Of course you will need different mics for drums and guitar cabinets.

The one thing a mic cannot do is fix the acoustics of the studio it is used in. Every room has its own pattern of reflections and resonances. A small room will have strong early reflections that cannot be removed from a mix. However, a dead room is not ideal either. Performers need some reflections to guide their performance and the reflections make for a more natural blending of instrument sound. Since no two bands are the same, many studios are equipped with movable acoustic isolator panels and walls with movable surfaces that can be changed from a reflection/diffraction side to an absorption side as the situation needs.

I have several friends in the studio design business. It might be good to invest in some consultant help up front rather than take a bad design and then spend years chasing down and eliminating the acoustic demons. Besides, the studio world is competitive. If you say you have a studio designed by someone well known or someone that worked on other famous studios, you might stand out from the competition.
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I've already been down this road once before and have engineered in larger studios as well. It is very hard to make money at it but for me, this is more enjoyment than anything else. Back in Nashville, I'd actually gotten to the point of starting to land a decent number of projects. My wife got jealous that I'd work projects without her involvement so I ended up just dropping it and started working live gigs. The live gigs eventually ended up transforming to mobile DJ work.

As for studio mics, I've long lusted after a U87 but have never been able to justify the $3k price tag. I'd also love one day to put my hands on a Universal Audio 6176 channel strip, but not likely any time soon. I'm sure this Donner will leave some to be desired but the reviews are overwhelmingly positive and Donner seems to be doing an incredible job of putting out quality knock-offs at rock-bottom pricing. Fingers crossed on this piece.
 
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I'd say do what makes you happy! You've earned it with having the responsibility of owning your own venue and the stress of the divorce (annulment?)....
 
Lots of good used equipment for sale.
 
rickryan.com said:
Call me crazy, but I'm really wanting to rebuild my recording studio. At one time, I was starting to get some decent projects in but the ex-wife just sucked the joy out of it and I had to give up the dream. I recently bought an interface box that comes with Presonus (I used cakewalk before). I also ordered some headphones that will be here this week, then I ran into a Donner DC87, which is a clone of a Neuman U87. Yeah, I know a $130 knock-off is not the same as a $3k Neuman but the reviews look good so I ordered it and it should be here on Saturday. Eventually, I want to build out a new studio and start taking on some recording projects, locally. Still have a ton of great session pickers in Nashville and it's a lot easier to farm out parts remotely. I know it's going to be a big expense and a longer-term project to get tooled up but there's a fair amount of prospects in this area and having the Nashville name/connections should make it viable as YET ANOTHER side hustle. Hey, who needs sleep?

Here's the mic. Interested in any comments from the peanut gallery.

Click to expand...

I used the Donners a few years ago when I used to do a lot of kids school concerts I can't speak for studio sound but they were very clear and precise in a live setting. You are dealing with local folks they probably won't notice any difference in the recording between that and an U87. With technology today the room is more important than the mic a lot of times
 
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Rick-- When I was buying a lot of mikes and couldn't afford the really big ticket items, I looked for gently used brand name products. Maybe another studio that wants to move up a notch might want to sell you some microphones (I eventually wound up with about 75 mikes, mostly collecting dust now, in storage since I closed my studio several years back). One thing you might do, if you are a singer or know a good one (or can supply some other sound source that you think might be a mainstay of your sessions, like electric guitar), is set-up a microphone audition/shoot out. Let's say, for the sake of argument (!), you were willing to go to GC and maybe had a connection with a salesperson there. Tell them you are looking for a mike that will make your voice (or X source) sound good. Bring one of the mikes you know well as a control sample. Bring some headphones you're familiar with, get them to set you up with a little mixer, some mikes and cables, and have at it. I looked at a bunch of LDC's with my voice as the target source. I checked out a bunch of good mikes from makers like Shure, AKG, Sennheiser, etc., and wound up really liking the Sterling LDC I purchased (I forget which model number it is; might be the 66?). It really sounded best by comparison, with the others and my control mike. Sterling is GC's revamped version of Groove Tube, iirc.

Anyway, I would spend some time picking out the right one. You can still get good deals on quality stuff. Might be a better idea than trusting a random, unheard Amazon purchase.

GJ
 
rhythmgj said:
Rick-- When I was buying a lot of mikes and couldn't afford the really big ticket items, I looked for gently used brand name products. Maybe another studio that wants to move up a notch might want to sell you some microphones (I eventually wound up with about 75 mikes, mostly collecting dust now, in storage since I closed my studio several years back). One thing you might do, if you are a singer or know a good one (or can supply some other sound source that you think might be a mainstay of your sessions, like electric guitar), is set-up a microphone audition/shoot out. Let's say, for the sake of argument (!), you were willing to go to GC and maybe had a connection with a salesperson there. Tell them you are looking for a mike that will make your voice (or X source) sound good. Bring one of the mikes you know well as a control sample. Bring some headphones you're familiar with, get them to set you up with a little mixer, some mikes and cables, and have at it. I looked at a bunch of LDC's with my voice as the target source. I checked out a bunch of good mikes from makers like Shure, AKG, Sennheiser, etc., and wound up really liking the Sterling LDC I purchased (I forget which model number it is; might be the 66?). It really sounded best by comparison, with the others and my control mike. Sterling is GC's revamped version of Groove Tube, iirc.

Anyway, I would spend some time picking out the right one. You can still get good deals on quality stuff. Might be a better idea than trusting a random, unheard Amazon purchase.

GJ
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Thanks. I don't ever intend to have a fully tricked out studio with a huge selection of mics, pres, comps, etc. I'm starting out with the absolute bare minimum (ain't got a lot of cash to play with). 2-channel interface, dbx comp and a few condenser mics. For now, I won't be capable of tracking full bands. What I did in the past was to use Jammer or Band-in-a-Box to generate a basic track then, stack additional live parts, then lead and harmony vocals. I never really liked BIAB, but they've made a bunch of improvements and their RealBand plugs sound terrific. If/when I get to the point of doing full albums again, I'll start contracting some of my session buddies back in Nashville to cover the parts I can't do. I usually will stack live bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar and piano. Again, no real expectation of being profitable. It's just something to help out the locals who would like to record themselves, but going to Nashville is a bit pricey for them. I do like your idea of searching for used stuff. Thanks for the input.
 
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rickryan.com said:
Thanks. I don't ever intend to have a fully tricked out studio with a huge selection of mics, pres, comps, etc. I'm starting out with the absolute bare minimum (ain't got a lot of cash to play with). 2-channel interface, dbx comp and a few condenser mics. For now, I won't be capable of tracking full bands. What I did in the past was to use Jammer or Band-in-a-Box to generate a basic track then, stack additional live parts, then lead and harmony vocals. I never really liked BIAB, but they've made a bunch of improvements and their RealBand plugs sound terrific. If/when I get to the point of doing full albums again, I'll start contracting some of my session buddies back in Nashville to cover the parts I can't do. I usually will stack live bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar and piano. Again, no real expectation of being profitable. It's just something to help out the locals who would like to record themselves, but going to Nashville is a bit pricey for them. I do like your idea of searching for used stuff. Thanks for the input.
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No problem! I loved BiaB. When I was doing jingles regularly, it was a great way to generate a demo, that sometimes became a good portion of the final project!


GJ
 
rhythmgj said:
No problem! I loved BiaB. When I was doing jingles regularly, it was a great way to generate a demo, that sometimes became a good portion of the final project!


GJ
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I always liked the control you had with Jammer but it seems BIAB has won out. I'm still struggling to figure out how to fine tune tracks with BIAB. The RealBand also supposedly has a plug-in that integrates with Presonus, but I haven't even started with that. One thing I do like about the new BIAB is you can export each track separately, then fly them into presonus. On the cut I'm currently working with, I like the drums and some wah-wah guitar tracks but I'm going to replace the bass track with a live one.
 
rhythmgj said:
No problem! I loved BiaB. When I was doing jingles regularly, it was a great way to generate a demo, that sometimes became a good portion of the final project!


GJ
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Did you ever use Sony Acid? That was actually pretty cool.
 
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That was the first loop-based program I ever tried. Great app. I had it before Sony bought it; I wonder how much it has changed?


GJ
 
The price tag is not the most relevant consideration when choosing a mic. It's not the price tag that defines a Neuman U87. It's an extremely versatile piece of gear with multiple polar patterns, pads, and other features that allow it to do the work of what otherwise might require an inventory many different mics. On that basis - the price simply reflects it's true value with respect to inventory, reliability, and lifespan. This is what pro gear is really all about - the ability to use the same reliable tools for many different applications.

If it's chiefly a personal studio then simply pick the mic that YOU love. If it's intended to serve many different client's and projects than invest in a mic (or a rental supplier) that will provide you with the greatest versatility and reliability. 1 mic that can do 5 different things is worth more than 5 cheap mics that each do only 1 thing - especially if the latter ends up on the trash heap rather than having any tread-in value.
 
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Mostly agree. But different mikes at different price points have their different uses. Versatility and utility are important. But I would never rent out the one U87 I owned (as an example; I don't currently and probably won't). I would rent beaters for that application. A U87 would never leave my studio.

There are too many variables to encapsulate this type of purchase in a single paragraph prescription, I suppose.


GJ
 
rhythmgj said:
That was the first loop-based program I ever tried. Great app. I had it before Sony bought it; I wonder how much it has changed?


GJ
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Looks like a company called "MAGIX" owns it now. I just upgraded BIAB to maximize my RealBand styles. I think it's going to keep me amused for a while.
 
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rhythmgj said:
Mostly agree. But different mikes at different price points have their different uses. Versatility and utility are important. But I would never rent out the one U87 I owned (as an example; I don't currently and probably won't). I would rent beaters for that application. A U87 would never leave my studio.

There are too many variables to encapsulate this type of purchase in a single paragraph prescription, I suppose.


GJ
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I doubt seriously that I'll ever again be on any recording project that could actually benefit from a real U87 and high-end mic pre. The reviews on this cheap Donner are strong and sounds like it's a lot better quality that you'd expect at that price point. I'll use what I've got for a while then likely will upgrade somewhere down the line, when I have some more play money. I am kinda digging Presonus though. I'm just barely into it and it looks like a good product.
 
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That is what you will tell your wife, until the G.A.S. kicks in, anyway.... ; )


GJ
 
rhythmgj said:
...different mikes at different price points have their different uses.
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That's not true until you also have different client types with differing needs. That won't be the case for a brand new personal studio space. There's lots of room to grow.

I could do weddings forever with just 2 types of microphone: cardiod HH and omni lav.

But, I have government, non-profits, schools, and private events - all of which have differing levels of expectation and user expertise. That's the ONLY reason for having mics that span the spectrum of price and performance. I have no choice in what I put on a Governor's or Presidential podium, I can negotiate what appears on a band's or elite school's rider, and I choose for non-profits the mics that best suit the purpose. For municipal schools on the other hand, I can choose what I think will survive the amateur abuse, or is otherwise disposable while still meeting the level of performance desired.

I don't know anything about the Donner - never heard of it. Would be smart to borrow or demo one before making a plastic LDM the central piece of a studio. Perhaps also demo it alongside a similarly priced Audio-Technica, Shure, or even Rode, to see if the element truly peforms better than other mics in it's price class. The idea that this is a great sounding knock-off of a U87 seems like a hail-Mary pass at best,
 
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