Gain, Master Volume, Volume on Powered Speaker?

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Rob, I agree, that is the process to set maximum gain through the entire system which many people don't understand.

[NOTE - If you don't understand gain structure, stop reading this message and google gain structure and you will find it described in many different places in many different manners, one of which will click with you and the light bulb will come on. After you get it, practice setting up your system in all possible configurations that you have. After you understand it and have done it many times, come back and read the rest of this message. Otherwise it will add to your confusion.]


However, for those of us who do understand gain and have more than enough system for most rooms, that setup method leaves the amp gains higher than they need to be for that room. Any noise in the system will be amplified and pushed out of the speakers as pops, clicks and the evil hiss which kills your signal to noise ratio. By only driving the amps at the level required for the room you minimize noise (limiting hiss) which increases your signal to noise ratio making the music cleaner.
 
Interesting point.... I've been driving my system as described and do not note any interferences as you mention.... however, I don't drive the system to Unity gain I'm usually riding my channel sliders around 2-4 durring cocktails and dinner and 6-8 durring dancing... I've not once needed to take my sliders to 10 yet :)

Just ask Randy how sweet it all sounded in the small venue we were in the week before....
 
If I read the initial post correctly, isn't it about setting the gain on POWERED (ACTIVE) Speakers? If so, everyone has been talking about setting the gain from the Amplifier to the speakers, as in amplifier and two separate passive speakers?

I use Active speakers and subs. I generally set the volume control on the back of the Active speaker to 3/4 or (3 o'clock) position. I also have a 1500 watt subwoofer (active). I begin by playing music through the mixer (using the master fader) to the Mains that will perhaps be the volume for the evening's dancing. Then I increase the Volume on the Subwoofer until I get the overall sound I want for the room (mains & sub), lately the subwoofer volume is at around 10 o'clock, but don't forget it's 1500 watts; the mains (tops) are 750 watts each.

Recap: The master fader volume control is usually set at 1/2 the distance to -0-. I begin by increasing the Chanel A fader (volume) to where I believe the level at which the evening's music will be played. As the evening progresses and more people fill the room, I may or may not need to increase the master Volume fader. However, I never push the Channel A or B volume fader beyond that of the Master volume control (fader). If I need more sound, it's the Master volume fader that I increase.

Meanwhile, I do check the "yellow" lights on the rear of each speaker to make sure they are not constant yellow. If that happens, I increase the volume on the rear of the speaker until it does not remain on. I have never seen the Red (clip) light come on. :)
 
@Twinspins: Setting gains has nothing to do with the type of speaker used.... setting up powered speakers is still the same as setting up a passive system... the signal path still ultimately goes to an amplifier and it doesn't matter if it's part of the speaker cab or in a rack.... the theory and setup is still the same.
 
Thanks for the enlightment. I guess that the way the original poster and I set our "gain" are similar. However, thanks for the "proper" way to engage system setup.
 
TwinSpinDJ said:
If I read the initial post correctly, isn't it about setting the gain on POWERED (ACTIVE) Speakers? If so, everyone has been talking about setting the gain from the Amplifier to the speakers, as in amplifier and two separate passive speakers?
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As Rob said, the logic is the same for passive and active. Only difference is in passive, you have a centralized amp.

TwinSpinDJ said:
I use Active speakers and subs. I generally set the volume control on the back of the Active speaker to 3/4 or (3 o'clock) position. I also have a 1500 watt subwoofer (active). I begin by playing music through the mixer (using the master fader) to the Mains that will perhaps be the volume for the evening's dancing. Then I increase the Volume on the Subwoofer until I get the overall sound I want for the room (mains & sub), lately the subwoofer volume is at around 10 o'clock, but don't forget it's 1500 watts; the mains (tops) are 750 watts each.
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I'm running in the 3:00 range too. My active tops are rated @ 1k and subs @ 700k. I'm thinking the Subs will most likely be @ 1:00 or so.

TwinSpinDJ said:
Recap: The master fader volume control is usually set at 1/2 the distance to -0-. I begin by increasing the Chanel A fader (volume) to where I believe the level at which the evening's music will be played. As the evening progresses and more people fill the room, I may or may not need to increase the master Volume fader. However, I never push the Channel A or B volume fader beyond that of the Master volume control (fader). If I need more sound, it's the Master volume fader that I increase.
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I use both the Master and the Channel slides. During dinner, I may have the system set for a particular master level (keeps my channel sliders in the same general area but usually on the lower side). During dancing, I'll generally up the master and the channel.

TwinSpinDJ said:
Meanwhile, I do check the "yellow" lights on the rear of each speaker to make sure they are not constant yellow. If that happens, I increase the volume on the rear of the speaker until it does not remain on. I have never seen the Red (clip) light come on. :)
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I also check the yellow lights. If you're clipping (yellow), why would you turn it up?
 
when I had my mackies I set them for 12 o clock and the damn things never alarmed me. Same for the most part with my Dynacord system.:triwink:

I usually would be around 3/4 on the master gains and my individual channels depends on the room and application (dinner time / cocktail and or Dancing). With the Dyna Sub and its slave on occasion depending again on room etc perhaps around 2 O'clock and still no damned alarm.:tribiggrin::tritongue:
 
Ask yourself a question: Does the size of the room really effect my signal chain?

My answer is no it doesn't... so this leads to the next question: Then why the need to adjust your signal chain based on venue size?

My answer you don't.

So, why is everyone adjusting their powered speakers this way? if you've set your gain structure you can control the room from the mixer and whatever EQ you may have, not the amp/powered speakers.
 
jokerswild said:
Ask yourself a question: Does the size of the room really effect my signal chain?

My answer is no it doesn't... so this leads to the next question: Then why the need to adjust your signal chain based on venue size?

My answer you don't.

So, why is everyone adjusting their powered speakers this way? if you've set your gain structure you can control the room from the mixer and whatever EQ you may have, not the amp/powered speakers.
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I will say it again, you do not have to do this. Setting the maximum gain before clip is the proper setup. However, for those of us who understand gain very well and tweak the last but of quality from a system, the least amount of gain used at the amplifier provides the best signal to noise ratio. Don't just take my word for it, read up on the subject and test it out for yourself.
 
I agree and was only mentioning in almost any and all situations mine is set one way. I have option to set up additional speakers thru the sub for satellite or for placement outside the room levels might be adjusted differently at that point is all I was saying. 99% of the time its always the same. I have 50% more to give if more is needed but not necessary to open it 100% .50% works great for probably all but two events I have ran the system. Sort of similar theory to idle on a Carb perhaps. No?
 
Scott Harris said:
I will say it again, you do not have to do this. Setting the maximum gain before clip is the proper setup. However, for those of us who understand gain very well and tweak the last but of quality from a system, the least amount of gain used at the amplifier provides the best signal to noise ratio. Don't just take my word for it, read up on the subject and test it out for yourself.
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I agree and was surprised myself when I followed my own proceedure that my amps are set at no more than 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock.... which is what most should find happening with their settings once the gains prior to the amp section are set first....

I'm not advocating cranking any amp/powered speaker to all the way up to their fullest... that's not necessary in any situation.
 
ittigger said:
I use both the Master and the Channel slides. During dinner, I may have the system set for a particular master level (keeps my channel sliders in the same general area but usually on the lower side). During dancing, I'll generally up the master and the channel.

I also check the yellow lights. If you're clipping (yellow), why would you turn it up?
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Do you mark your max gain settings on a tape or something? If not and you are moving both the channel & master, how do you know where the optimal setting is?

Yellow lights at the amp or active speakers only means that specific device is hitting clip. What you want is all devices in the chain to be clipping at exactly the same time. That is the sign of a proper gain setup and the process has to start with the input channel faders and end with the amp gains.
 
with the SRM 450's I never had the heating issues others had when kept religiously at 50% it was a must to keep my shows in go mode never had an issue with them going thermal.
 
djrox said:
That may very well be optimal but it is not necessary or even beneficial.
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Please expand on your thoughts. From everything I have been taught, read and been doing for many years, that is exactly what you want. Maximum signal strength before clipping at each input provides the highest signal, therefor the best signal to noise ratio which is exactly what you want. I am talking about before clipping, not at clipping. Some equipment has a large number of leds which provide very fine detail in the metering, some equipment may only have 3 leds: signal, -10db and clip. Most clip lights blink a few db below actual clipping, but everyone should be familiar with their own gear and well aware of how it works. Please let me know what is incorrect about this.
 
Scott Harris said:
Do you mark your max gain settings on a tape or something? If not and you are moving both the channel & master, how do you know where the optimal setting is?

Yellow lights at the amp or active speakers only means that specific device is hitting clip. What you want is all devices in the chain to be clipping at exactly the same time. That is the sign of a proper gain setup and the process has to start with the input channel faders and end with the amp gains.
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Scott - My aim there was during dinner, you're generally on the quiet side, so things are leveled down significantly. During the dance, I'm up where I need to be - but I'm not adjusting anything on the amp or on the active speakers.
 
Scott Harris said:
Please expand on your thoughts. From everything I have been taught, read and been doing for many years, that is exactly what you want. Maximum signal strength before clipping at each input provides the highest signal, therefor the best signal to noise ratio which is exactly what you want. I am talking about before clipping, not at clipping. Some equipment has a large number of leds which provide very fine detail in the metering, some equipment may only have 3 leds: signal, -10db and clip. Most clip lights blink a few db below actual clipping, but everyone should be familiar with their own gear and well aware of how it works. Please let me know what is incorrect about this.
Click to expand...
Having the technically perfect, uber-tweeked settings may very well be optimal, and a sound tech may demand it. However, if you wish to avoid the infinite, time consuming process of finding the optimal and your system has the capacity and headroom to deliver it, simply developing and finding an acceptable and equally pleasant setting, that may only require a bit of temperance on the sliders, may, due to simplicity and effectiveness, be no less beneficial.
 
After you have run through the process a few times, it becomes an almost thoughtless process that you do when you setup and only takes a few minutes. After you have done it a few times and if you know your equipment very well you can almost nail it and sound check shows how close you were and the process literally takes seconds. I don't consider it uber-tweaking, it's a standard setup routine for me. The only time I don't do it is when I can't do sound check for various reasons. I am periodically checking levels throughout every performance and tweaking as I go when I play dance songs that exercise the system.
 
I am aware that the initial topic is about Gain, Master Volume, Volume on Powered Speaker? are you guys applying the same principals with passive speakers and amps too?

I believe In my case my initial topic would have been (How to calibrate Gain, Master Volume, Volume on passive Speakers and amps)?

This is how I calibrate my digital passive DJ system:

1. With amps off: Play pink noise through your DJ app of choice with the DJ software master volume wide open and all the EQ' s set to default settings.

2. DJ mixer with all the EQ' s set to default settings, the channel faders all the way up, all channel gains at 12 o' clock, and DJ mixer master gain past 1 o' clock to the point that it just barely clips and then back it off just a little and adjust the signal to just below clipping.

3. Audio signal processor In my case the Dynacord DSP 244 signal processor. Use the factory default settings that is appropriate for your particular speakers. Add limiter settings to your particular amp according to its Input sensitivity value.

4. Now that you've set the signal chain from source to just before amp it's time to turn the amp on... (no need to connect speakers yet). Adjust the individual gains wide open on the amp. In my case the system is a 2 way passive system.

5. At this point you can now make small tweaks to the factory settings to your own liking so long the amp does not clip with the master gain on the DJ mixer all the way up at 6 o' clock clearly in the red. When you play at different locations, one will just need to adjust the master volume on the DJ mixer.

Congratulation, your PA system is now well calibrated to safely play as loud as you want. lol
 
I say have a big enough system so you never see clip lights....
 
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