BMI/ASCAP Lisc. for schools

I am fairly certain that even though schools charge to admittance it is still considered a private event. This is because it isn't open to the public, it is only open to students of the school. Therefor a music license isn't required.
Regardless, BMI/ASCAP only would go after the organizer of the event, which is the school.

Mike is correct. It's a private event, so the point is moot.

DJ Wes said:

Mike is correct. It's a private event, so the point is moot.

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A private event is often undefined, and is subjective, depending on how you spin it...

So what if one of the rugrats sneaks in a friend who was not invited? Is that now a private, or public event?

The artists do not get their royalties, and the DJ gets all their money.

I call foul on that.

Come on Rick, let common sense prevail here.

DJ Wes said:

Come on Rick, let common sense prevail here.

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It has nothing to do with that. It's simply theft of copyrighted material for gain on the DJs part.

Somebody has to pay those royalties -- whether it's the venue or the DJ.

Not true. The record labels allow companies like PrimeCuts, Promo Only, etc. to distribute their music to working DJs as a means to promote their artists/songs. As long as the event is PRIVATE, no laws are being broken. Who is stealing what?

School events are "public events." There is a fair use exemption for music used in classroom instruction, but not at a recital or a school dance.

The students at a school are outside the "normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances." Kids birthday parties, wedding receptions, family reunions, etc...are examples of "private" events. Access by the "general public," admission charges, private club memberships, are all red herrings....if people are there who are outside your family or normal social circle, the event is "public."

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/termsdefined.aspx

Public Performance or Performance Rights
A public performance is one that occurs "in a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered." A public performance also occurs when the performance is transmitted by means of any device or process (for example, via broadcast, telephone wire, or other means) to the public. In order to perform a copyrighted work publicly, the user must obtain performance rights from the copyright owner or his representative.

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http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx#general

A public performance is one that occurs either in a public place or any place where people gather (other than a small circle of a family or its social acquaintances). A public performance is also one that is transmitted to the public; for example, radio or television broadcasts, music-on-hold, cable television, and by the internet. Generally, those who publicly perform music obtain permission from the owner of the music or his representative. However, there are a few limited exceptions, (called "exemptions") to this rule. Permission is not required for music played or sung as part of a worship service unless that service is transmitted beyond where it takes place (for example, a radio or television broadcast). Performances as part of face to face teaching activity at a non-profit educational institutions are also exempt. We recommend that you contact your local ASCAP representative who can discuss your needs and how ASCAP can help you.

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AND....

It is not the DJ or performers jobs to get the license...it is the event organizer. The school is the entity that is benefiting from the performance, the school needs to get the license. I am certainly willing to get the license on behalf of the school, while passing along the full cost with a modest up charge for my handling.

Aren't musicians, entertainers and DJ's responsible for obtaining permission for music they perform?
Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business.

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For the record, just because ASCAP say so doesn't mean a court will agree. But I agree, the school should get it if they are requiring it.

It's no different than a cover band playing in a bar. The band is not responsible to obtain the license. The bar owner is.

DJ Wes said:

For the record, just because ASCAP say so doesn't mean a court will agree. But I agree, the school should get it if they are requiring it.

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Wes...so far the courts have a pretty good track record of agreeing with those definitions. Either way, by the time anything gets to court you have already lost (time, money, aggravation, etc). AND...those are the definitions that RIAA will use in deciding when and where to send their letters. Better to be on the safe side.

oldschooldj said:

I have been doing a bunch of school dances at one local school (private school) and have been approached by several schools in the county to do dances for them.

I did some back door (not to draw any attention) checks and none of the local schools have purchased any music lisc. They have lots of different DJ's come in and the schools take on it is, the entertainers need to have insurance, proper music lisc and back ground checks.

They state thier dances are not for profit and the only person receiving pay or profit from the dance is the DJ, thus the DJ shall provide the lisc. Is what they are doing right? Has anyone who is doing school dances even checked to see if the schools they are playing in are properly lisc? Is this another one of those things in Djing where we hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil?

I don't operate like that so I am having a major issue with taking any more school dances, knowing that business is not as it should be. Before anybody starts the "take the money and run attitude" and starts firing hollier than thou comments at me, I live my life by my code, I won't change that. I would just like some real world information on what other DJ's are seeing with the school stuff.

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It may very well depend on the school and the event.
College students for example, are a group of adults whose only connection is that they applied and were accepted. However, if a group of Grad students in the Engineering Dept. decide to have a holiday party for themselves they may well qualify under the definition of "private" as a group of associates. They are in fact, a defined group of friends, associates, and circle of acquaintance.

If that same group of students however, decides to hold a dance with campus wide admission then no, it is no longer private. Simply being affiliated with the same institution is not enough to define "associates."

Socialization is a part of both primary and secondary education and the schools are typically a closed community. There can be many instances of events that do not meet the threshold for licensing - and others that clearly do. It is common for some schools to have a blanket license in place to resolve these issues for the campus, particular spaces/venues. Others may not be aware or have been advised they don't need one. Events held off campus (like a prom) may be covered under an existing hotel ballroom license.

Trust your gut feeling - if it feels like there should be a license in place then that's probably the right answer for that particular event. Either way - it is the responsibility of the school, school dept. or sponsoring organization to obtain that license. You're fear of being pursued in unfrounded. The DJ is not responsible for performing licenses unless you yourself are the event promoter/venue owner. I would not worry much about it.

Public Performance or Performance Rights
A public performance is one that occurs "in a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered." In order to perform a copyrighted work publicly, the user must obtain performance rights from the copyright owner or his representative.

A school dance is not a "public" event, because the "public" is not invited.
A school is not "open to the public".
They've been having school dances since the sock-hops of the 50's...
I think SOMEONE would have had a problem by now.

Ausumm said:

Public Performance or Performance Rights
A public performance is one that occurs "in a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered." In order to perform a copyrighted work publicly, the user must obtain performance rights from the copyright owner or his representative.

A school dance is not a "public" event, because the "public" is not invited.
A school is not "open to the public".
They've been having school dances since the sock-hops of the 50's...
I think SOMEONE would have had a problem by now.

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This is wrong.

"Open to the public" is one of two given criteria.

The other criteria is "ANY place where a substantial number of persons outside the normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered." Unless the school is run by the Amish...there will be a "substantial" number of students who are not related...and who are not social acquaintances. Co-workers are NOT "social acquaintances." Classmates (in the "school wide" sense) are not either.

Lack of a lawsuit does not mean you are in compliance with copyright law and the license terms.

soundinmotiondj said:

This is wrong.

"Open to the public" is one of two given criteria.

The other criteria is "ANY place where a substantial number of persons outside the normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered." Unless the school is run by the Amish...there will be a "substantial" number of students who are not related...and who are not social acquaintances. Co-workers are NOT "social acquaintances." Classmates (in the "school wide" sense) are not either.

Lack of a lawsuit does not mean you are in compliance with copyright law and the license terms.

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.. your experience with this being what? ASCAP does not license public schools, and high schools unless they are for profit institutions like colleges and Universities.

Co-worker's are indeed "associates" and a "circle of acquaintance" and often do fall under the privacy protection. Holiday parties, retirement parties, etc, - these are private events among co-workers.

Trade shows, vendor appreciation banquets, sales kick-offs - these are NOT private and instead commercial uses.

Schools too, may also have events that fit the privacy definition. Just because there is a large attendance does not mean it is a public event. A senior prom with 800 kids is still a private event - In any case, the hotel in which they hold it lkely has a blanket license of it's own. When the dance is in the gym for students only - I think you would be attempting to skirt the Congressional intent by chasing a performance royalty here.

Proformance said:

.. your experience with this being what?

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Start with these case law references.... http://www.sesac.com/media/pdf/lic/sumcases.pdf

This goes over some of the common "educational" exceptions...school dances are not listed. http://publishing.wsu.edu/copyright/music.html

This book has a good discussion of the topic beginning on page 106. http://www.amazon.com/Music-Copyright-Law-David-Moser/dp/1435459725

1. A public performance occurs anytime a work is performed as a place open to the public. A place that is open to the public is a place where the general public is free to go, regardless of how many people are actually present and regardless of whether an admission fee is charged. Some examples include concert venues, theaters, nightclubs, bars, restaurants, and retail stores.
2. A public performance occurs when a work is performed at a place where a substantial number of people other than family and friends are gathered. This includes what are commonly known as semipublic places such as private clubs, workplaces, and schools. Exactly how many people constitute a substantial number is not specified by the Copyright act.

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So...back to you. What are the specific things you are citing that indicate a "school dance" and a "company holiday party" are not "public performances?"

soundinmotiondj said:

Start with these case law references.... http://www.sesac.com/media/pdf/lic/sumcases.pdf

This goes over some of the common "educational" exceptions...school dances are not listed. http://publishing.wsu.edu/copyright/music.html

An "educational exception" is something above and beyond the "private" distinction, a whole second level. For example, a critique of a work which includes performing the work does not incur a liability even when public. Also, socialization is an important educational component of our public school systems. You can not argue that a dance held on school property for students/family of that school is a public event. It is not.

This book has a good discussion of the topic beginning on page 106. http://www.amazon.com/Music-Copyright-Law-David-Moser/dp/1435459725


So...back to you. What are the specific things you are citing that indicate a "school dance" and a "company holiday party" are not "public performances?"

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Instead of musing over internet sites -
Why don't you just call and ask if you can purchase a license for your Junior prom or middle school dance?

Proformance said:

Instead of musing over internet sites -
Why don't you just call and ask if you can purchase a license for your Junior prom or middle school dance?

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It's after hours, so I got a recording. I'll try again later.

oldschooldj said:

Thanks, guys. I read all I could find online and my take is, and I am definetly not a law expert, all schools that have dances, should have the lisc. So what happens to the DJ that is there being paid and thinks he has all his stuff correct and the school has no lisc, and the dance gets checked by the music industry? I get that the chance of them targeting a school dance is probably not that high, however I would be in the wrong and know it.

The way I read the stuff from the music idustry online, everyone involved in the event would be at fault, and the one playing the copy righted music is responsible for knowing the rules, thus I am guessing could get hammered by the industry.

I am not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill here, but the more I look at what is legal in the Dj industry, the more I see in my area that is done outside of the rules/law. I am trying to insure I stay within the law and that those that make the wondefull (most of time) music we play, also get there due. Let's face it, without music from artist, we "DJ's" do not have a job!

Ray J.

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Ray,
It's noble to do due diligence to make sure you are staying within the law. As my lawyer and I understands it, not only is a license not available in the US for a DJ, DJ has never been sued because they played music at an event that needed a license and didn't have it.
Personally, I believe the rules are written so in the event they find evidence that a DJ/band is conspiring to tell venues or events to not bother with licensing, then there is something in there that could be used against them.

But until they sue a dj/ band for playing music at a venue that didn't have the proper licensing, it's all speculation.

ASCAP/BMI have plenty of venues to go after for not obtaining licensing. The odds of them ever deciding to pursue a DJ/ band.....which is a much more complicated case with much less chance of payoff.......is one in millions.

It simply isn't going to happen.

Perhaps you could put a clause in your agreement saying that the clients acknowledges that they've obtained all needed licenses.

I'm simply not worried about it. I spend a lot of money on music. I hope the musicians are getting paid, but I have more important things to worry about than them.