Religion?????

Jesus would use a mac.....

Wiz, I would love to have a sit down with you discuss this. I have done this many times. Just felt that this forum was the wrong setting.

Jesus would use a mac.....

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Aww c'mon Davy -- Steve Jobs was married by a Buddhist Monk

Wavy Davy said:

Jesus would use a mac.....

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I think he'd use a Son (Sun).

We all know that he loves backup because, we all know that Jesus saves.

Wavy Davy said:

Jesus would use a mac.....

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Jesus would eat a (Big) Mac while driving a Mack truck.

Socalhugh, I wouldn't say anything different in a sit down. It wouldn't be any more fruitful. Writing things down like this allows us to distill and refine our thoughts better than a verbal discussion IMO. this is more useful and more valuable IMO.

I said I was open to the possibility that god exists and that if there was some good evidence that I would be the first to change my views. The bible isn't credible evidence(in my opinion) and that's what y'all base your entire belief system on. The bible and faith.

The Muslims have the Koran and faith(they believe differently than you do). The Mormons have their Joseph Smith bible version and faith(much different than the catholic bible). The Jews have their bible and faith(they don't accept Jesus as the savior, they're still waiting for the messiah to come). Same for the Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists etc.

Not one religion has any tangible, clear cut information that someone can used to make a decision. What you believe today is all based on early childhood indoctrination, faith and feelings.

People in the jungle don't have written language so they pass their beliefs down using oral repetition. Why do they believe in spirits and magic? That's what they were taught. That's part of their culture, just like the religion that you practice. Your religion is in a large part culturally influenced. It's also influenced by peer pressure, the media and other factors.

The early people in Abraham's time worshiped idol gods. The people in the jungle carve totem poles and have rituals where spirits are believed to enter the carvings. Go into a Catholic church and you will see idols-you would say they're representations-and people will kneel and pray to the idol. Is that so different than 2000, 3000 or 5000 years ago? It says right in the bible make no graven images. Why? Because they knew that people would worship them. They knew that people would convey deity upon the statues.

The New testament says "call no man father" because they didn't want priests to be elevated above the common people-because they are no better and don't know any more than anyone else about god. Why should they? They're just men like anyone else. What is a priest called in the catholic church?

I could go on FOREVER. I'm sure you have explanations carefully formulated BY THE CHURCH that TRY to refute everything I say.

To be fair. It's much easier for me to argue my side that it is for y'all to present a compelling argument for your side. It's a tough thing to debate.

The Wizard Of OZ said:

To be fair. It's much easier for me to argue my side that it is for y'all to present a compelling argument for your side. It's a tough thing to debate.

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Wasn't looking for an argument, but love to share views. I am convinced that arguments win nothing. Sharing views wins friends. I just wanted us to stay in that status.

I still have legit responses to many of your points, but will wait for a better forum to speak.

The Wizard Of OZ said:

To be fair. It's much easier for me to argue my side that it is for y'all to present a compelling argument for your side. It's a tough thing to debate.

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How does one debate the existence of a supreme being? That would be an oxymoron at it's best

The bible isn't credible evidence(in my opinion) and that's what y'all base your entire belief system on. The bible and faith.

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I'm not sure that anyone has ever said the Bible was proof of existence of God. The Bible was written by men, based upon their relationship with God, and the feelings/words/force, that come with a relationship of that type.

It is many of mankind's interpretations, of the word of God, as delivered to them.

The Muslims have the Koran and faith(they believe differently than you do). The Mormons have their Joseph Smith bible version and faith(much different than the catholic bible). The Jews have their bible and faith(they don't accept Jesus as the savior, they're still waiting for the messiah to come). Same for the Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists etc.

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That's a blanket statement, with little basis...

Most religions believe in a supreme being, no matter what the name they give it, or whether they consider it a part of themselves (which is the same thing).

Not one religion has any tangible, clear cut information that someone can used to make a decision.

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That's why it is called Faith The ability to reason, was given by something. Look back in time thousands of years ago, and you will find humans had the same concept of reason, and the universe, much as they do today.

That says one of two things:

1. We are just as stupid as we were then, and evolution became a women's hair care product.

2. We had the information right from the start.

If we had the info right from the start -- that blows the whole evolution thingy right off the charts. Who the heck figured out how to build them damn pyramids anywho...?

I could go on FOREVER. I'm sure you have explanations carefully formulated BY THE CHURCH that TRY to refute everything I say.

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I don't go to church -- how come I can't have Faith and believe in God...?

Please understand, we're not arguing. That term is used synonymously with debate in this context. To argue one's point means to provide information and to support the point you are trying to make. Let's not split hairs over semantics.

This is really a philosophical discussion regarding metaphysics and epistemology in my opinion. This is about trying to know/understand what exists or doesn't exist-god-and the nature of god's existence. Many great philosophers have debated this for thousands of years. God and spirit defy logical understanding.

Experiential/empirical knowledge is more valuable to me than faith so I guess I'm an empiricist. I don't "know" that electricity is in a wire by looking at the wire, but if I touch the wire I know it's there.

Some people believe in ghosts. I've never seen a ghost, have you? I don' think most people have ever seen a ghost or had that kind of experience, but a lot of people believe there are ghosts. It's a mythological vestage of ancient beliefs, superstitions and fears.

I'm not a doubting Thomas because I wasn't there to see Jesus. Thomas was there and he still didn't believe what he saw with his own eyes. There is a difference between someone who reads a book centuries later and says "I need more evidence to be convinced" and someone who has a profound experience that convinces them of the existence of god.

Again, as I said before, if god is all powerful, powerful enough to create the entire universe and all within it, he could communicate with us in a meaningful way that we could ALL understand clearly that he exists and what he wants of us if anything. The bible isn't it. Each religion has it's own book with different stories and different ideas about god or gods. Some holy books talk about many gods, some talk about one god, some are far more ancient than the Christian bible.

If someone wins the lottery they say "look what god did for me, thank god". If their family member gets killed in a car accident they say "it was god's will", "nothing could have been done". Maybe something could have been done? Maybe it had more to do with life and things happening or people making things happen? Is it possible to just be in the wrong place at the wrong time? OR To be inthe right place at the right time. What about being proactive and doing something that makes something happen? Is that god's will?



People say "the lord will provide", what if the lord doesn't provide? Good things happen and it's god will? People pray for a home run. Does god care if you hit a home run? What if you strike out? Does it mean god doesn't care? People look at god in a very simplistic way to fulfill their wants and needs.

Some people believe in god to get something. If you believe in god then you will go to heaven. Not, it's the right thing to do because god exists. If it's so good in heaven then why don't we all go there right now?

Heaven was created to give people hope because their lives were so bad on earth.

Ever hear of people trying to heal someone with prayer and the state forces them to receive medical treatment? The person would have died and in some cases people have died without medical treatment. After receiving medical treatment they get better. Prayers weren't working, medical treatment did. God has his mysterious plan where some prayers "work" and some don't. We can't question why. Jehovah's Witnesses won't allow blood transfusions because in the old testament bible it says not to eat blood. It also says not to eat pork and I bet they eat a lot of it.

Many Christians work on the holy sabbath day. They pick and choose like in a Chinese restaurant which parts from column A they will observe and which parts from column B they will choose to ignore. How does god feel about that? If you believe in god and you believe the bible is the word of god, shouldn't you follow ALL the rules of god and not just the ones that are convenient or that you agree with?

If god is infallible but you don't believe or agree with everything in the bible or in the church which is his representative organization on earth, then does that mean that god or the bible or the church are flawed in some way?

Is it OK to kill an abortion doctor? Wouldn't it be better to prevent pregnancy? But the Church only allows condoms and the rhythm method to prevent conception. An IUD that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus is considered a form of abortion. I don't think birth control pills are permitted either. I don't know everything, maybe they are allowed.

Think about marriage. A religious person in a fancy costume says some words and waves a magic wand and now you're married. Is that real? How is it now more legitimate? Are those people really any different than they were a few minutes before? They now have the blessing of god. So a ceremony imparts a magical state onto the couple and now they are somehow different. More magic, more superstition and ancient tradition. What is real?

Joseph Smith believed that it was OK to have multiple wives(he probably just wanted to have a lot of sex with a lot of women). Abraham had more than one wife. If you do that today you will go to jail or you might go out of your freakin mind first maybe? Why is it wrong today? In the time of the bible there were slaves, it was accepted. You could own another person like you own a cow. Is this right? Let's use the golden rule. Would you want someone owning you? The founding fathers of this great nation owned slaves. A huge war was fought over slavery, a lot of folks believed there was nothing wrong with it. They were making a pile of money off slave labor.

Lots of people believe lots of different things and justify/rationalize their beliefs in all kinds of ways.

OK, not argument from me. Close it.

That stuff I just wrote came after y'alls, I was thinking and composing so I never saw it until I posted.