Same Library For Multiple Systems

JamesY said:

No not at all. I was born in, live in, and work in Kentucky. I just remembered that my cousin married a girl who had an uncle who looks a lot like you, and the wedding was in Florida and he DJ'd her wedding reception. Thought maybe it may have been you

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Nah, not me. I've got a number of relatives in VA and WV, and some in Arkansas. Tons in the northeast...

You never answered my question Bob -- is you contract valid...?

Based upon what you are saying, contract is not valid.

Yes - I violated the TOS by calling someone stupid... which is a perfect example of the impotence of an EULA - because it's real purpose is not to affect behavior but, protect the site from being sued by Steve or Rick when their self-esteem gets damaged.

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BTW, you didn't hurt my feelings (and probably not Steves).

It's a chat board, I couldn't give two sh_ts -- it's simply a place to BS. Some are better at the BS than others...

steve149 said:

If you need it in your format to understand, here it is: Play music for money and get paid. measure = sales | cause = music

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Sales of what? You didn't sell anything because you work for the bride and the bride is the person the law measures. She receives no commercial gain by hiring you to push play for her.

In a nightclub you are still NOT the person of interest because you work for the club. But, the club does take in more revenue by hiring you so they have to pay a royalty for that commercial gain.

You want to think your something special because you walk around with a box full of CDs or MP3's - yet, the same rules apply as they do to a cover band who plays everything live. Weddings - no commercial gain. Bar or Club - there is a commercial gain. It's about the audible instance of the songs in a place where business is being transacted - not the guy who sings or brings it.

YOU'RE NOT IN THE EQUATION!
Read it again until you finally realize that the "user" in commercial use is not you! ....just ablsolutely stupid.

steve149 said:

What's ablsolutely [sic] stupid is carrying on this conversation.

I hope you are correct Bob, as nowhere did you say "in my opinion" ... you stated everything as fact, and fact that any non-stupid person should know. There are a lot of people who will read the previous and make judgements on it, so stay prepared.

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Let him roll with it Steve -- he obviously hasn't had any work in the last couple weeks. xf

Just for S&G' though, I'd like to hear the FACTS on whether his contract is valid...

steve149 said:

What's ablsolutely [sic] stupid is carrying on this conversation.

I hope you are correct Bob, as nowhere did you say "in my opinion" ... you stated everything as fact, and fact that any non-stupid person should know. There are a lot of people who will read the previous and make judgements on it, so stay prepared.

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I agree. And you're correct, no where did I say "in my opinion" because it is not my opinion it is the opinions of the Federal Appeals Courts - legal facts that perhaps not everyone knows... but, anyone who wants to be a professional DJ needs to learn.

A lack on information or education on anyone else's part does not constitute an error on my part. The relevant case law on performance rights, commercial use, and more is there for you to read.. If you want to believe that DJs are so uniquely misunderstood that you exist in some massive gray area - then by all means pretend none of these public records exist.

SoftJock Rick said:

Just for S&G' though, I'd like to hear the FACTS on whether his contract is valid...

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You haven't presented any facts to be considered. Valid on what cause?

A contract can be violated by either side at any time - it's then up to the aggrieved party to file a civil complaint for relief or damages. It happens all the time in business. People enter a contract for say: $1 million and then something changes that would allow then to realize $100 million so they breach the contract, eat the liquidated damages or pay a settlement, and go on to make more money as a result.

From where did you get this notion of universal justice and reciprocity in the world? Is it wrong to admit you made a mistake - breach a contract, pay the cost (if any) and go on to make a much better deal? ... of course not.

The iTunes EULA is not all controlling - it has to conform with Federal or State law and where it does not those terms will be unenforceable. Courts can choose to enforce a contract that is unfair - but, they can NEVER enforce a contract provision that contradicts Federal or State Law.

Proformance said:

You haven't presented any facts to be considered. Valid on what cause?

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You've told me that my EULA, Apples's EULA and Amazon's EULA are not essentially valid in your eyes.

That means your contract is not valid either. So now you want to change things to suit your needs. That's fairly arrogant in my eyes.

You haven't shown me anything to support your position, other than you can dance around a subject.

I'm a nice guy Bob, so I'm not going to send an email to Apple or Amazon regarding your practices in violating their contracts with you. They may catch wind because this is a public thread though -- I can't control that. If that happens, you may find yourself on the end of a lawsuit you can't win, and you put thousands of other DJs at risk of getting sued as well.

Some subjects are best not pushed to the limits -- Just saying, y'know

SoftJock Rick said:

you put thousands of other DJs at risk of getting sued as well.

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The Comment above! That is Grand Standing and Fear Mongering. Apple for sure know what DJs do. Why then do some DJ Software come with ITunes Libraries? Traktor has it (I don't use it)! I would think that it will be very easy for Apple and others to target DJs, they are very easy to find. Why haven't they? There has to be some merit in what Bob is saying. Why so quick to dispel? Just saying!

"Palm-Forehead"

ahoustondj said:

The Comment above! That is Grand Standing and Fear Mongering. Apple for sure know what DJs do. Why then do some DJ Software come with ITunes Libraries? Traktor has it (I don't use it)! I would think that it will be very easy for Apple and others to target DJs, they are very easy to find. Why haven't they? There has to be some merit in what Bob is saying. Why so quick to dispel? Just saying!

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Here's the deal Canute -- I've dealt with Apple's lawyers, I'm guessing Bob has not. They are not nice, and have tons of money behind them.

When they contacted me, they were going after another company. I was very reluctant, because they started asking about my stuff too. So, I dug back deep, and found out that I had done the stuff before they had. I didn't have the money to sue them at the time, so I let it go.

If they want yer ass, they will take you for everything you have -- yer not gonna beat them.

It's not fear mongering -- it's reality. If you make too much of a stink about something yer getting away with, someone might hear about it. There's roughly 90,000+ DJs in this country. Maybe they decide to sue them all for $20k each. Let's add that up 90,000 x 20,000 = A Whole boatload of money.

Do you want to be a party to that, and is Bob gonna pay your bill...?

SoftJock Rick said:

Here's the deal Canute -- I've dealt with Apple's lawyers, I'm guessing Bob has not. They are not nice, and have tons of money behind them.

When they contacted me, they were going after another company. I was very reluctant, because they started asking about my stuff too. So, I dug back deep, and found out that I had done the stuff before they had. I didn't have the money to sue them at the time, so I let it go.

If they want yer ass, they will take you for everything you have -- yer not gonna beat them.

It's not fear mongering -- it's reality. If you make too much of a stink about something yer getting away with, someone might hear about it. There's roughly 90,000+ DJs in this country. Maybe they decide to sue them all for $20k each. Let's add that up 90,000 x 20,000 = A Whole boatload of money.

Do you want to be a party to that, and is Bob gonna pay your bill...?

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When I go to a Gig I play "the azz". Nobody has that copyrighted!

SoftJock Rick said:

You've told me that my EULA, Apples's EULA and Amazon's EULA are not essentially valid in your eyes.

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Not all Mr. Absolute - I never threw out the entire EULA. I told you that YOUR interpretation of commercial use is wrong because if that is what the EULA is trying to say - then that provision would be unenforceable against a mobile DJ doing private events.

If I like your music and buy your CD, you are not entitled to a royalty every time I listen to it. If I play it at my daughters wedding, you are still entitled to nothing. If I hire a DJ to play it for me you are still entitled to nothing. If the DJ uses his own copy you are stll entitled to nothing. The DJ is paid to facilitate my personal enjoyment along with my family and friends. The DJ facilitates no commercial gain: the music heard at my wedding does not advance or promote any product, service, or idea. This use is a private non-commercial performance and exempt by law.

The DJ is not a party to this legal equation because it is my wedding that makes use of the music not the DJ. Without the weddings there are no such DJs - the event is the "use" being measured.

That means your contract is not valid either. So now you want to change things to suit your needs. That's fairly arrogant in my eyes.

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Non-sense. My contract is not a "decree" it's an agreement and people often disagree. I'm confident my contract contains provisions that satisfy both sides of the table. I can't tell you every instance in which it might fail or succeed at protecting my interest and I don't care. The whole point of the agreement is to avoid a conflict with a clear and generalized instrument of communication.

You have trouble with the generalized language of the iTunes EULA because you don not fully understand the legal limits of the term commercial use.

You haven't shown me anything to support your position, other than you can dance around a subject.

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Yes I have, you're just too lazy to verify it. It's not my position it's the law of the land. Look it up.

I'm a nice guy Bob, so I'm not going to send an email to Apple or Amazon regarding your practices in violating their contracts with you. They may catch wind because this is a public thread though -- I can't control that. If that happens, you may find yourself on the end of a lawsuit you can't win, and you put thousands of other DJs at risk of getting sued as well. Some subjects are best not pushed to the limits -- Just saying, y'know

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Nice guys don't mention threats and then claim their too good for that.
I'm perfectly happy to let you contact Apple, the RIAA or anyone else you feel should be aware of my comments. They are now on the internet and a public record anyway. I can be reached at 1-800-439-3277. If you really believe they should serve papers on this issue - tell them to use the address at the link you previously provided. Don't hold your breath. What you believe should or could happen has already been tried and it has failed every time.

Every once in a while Congress gets something right! Thank you, U.S.C Title 17 as amended, U.S.C. Title 15, and HRA, DMCA, et al.

SoftJock Rick said:

Here's the deal Canute -- I've dealt with Apple's lawyers, I'm guessing Bob has not. They are not nice, and have tons of money behind them.

When they contacted me, they were going after another company. I was very reluctant, because they started asking about my stuff too. So, I dug back deep, and found out that I had done the stuff before they had. I didn't have the money to sue them at the time, so I let it go.

If they want yer ass, they will take you for everything you have -- yer not gonna beat them.

It's not fear mongering -- it's reality. If you make too much of a stink about something yer getting away with, someone might hear about it. There's roughly 90,000+ DJs in this country. Maybe they decide to sue them all for $20k each. Let's add that up 90,000 x 20,000 = A Whole boatload of money.

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..and as we've seen the issues you always bring up are software, proprietary code, or something else - all separate issues from the performance rights in music and mobile DJs at private events.

Rick admittedly, Apple has never given me permission to play songs at a wedding - neither has the RIAA, or any major record label. The fact is, I don't need their permission and the law forbids them any claim on that performance.

Proformance said:

Not all Mr. Absolute - I never threw out the entire EULA. I told you that YOUR interpretation of commercial use is wrong because if that is what the EULA is trying to say - then that provision would be unenforceable against a mobile DJ doing private events.

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And I disagree with YOUR interpretation Bob.

That's what they make judges and courts for...

Again, I don't think Apple gives a hoot at the moment, because they are making tons of money. But if they decided they needed a new revenue stream, and decide to go after DJs and win the judgement, then things get interesting.

Let's say they settle the dispute by adding a commercial rights use specifically targeted at DJs. Instead of charging a buck for a tune, it now goes to 5 bucks for those extra rights. They've increased their revenue stream, and the DJs have decreased theirs.

So, I do not agree with flaunting their EULA. They are one of, if not the most profitable companies on the planet. What do you think your odds will be, if you go up against them in court...?

Mobile Music 1 said:

We all know that it's immoral and illegal to have 1 library duplicated for multiple rig but I wonder...

Has anyone been sued or imprisoned for duplicating their music library within their own company?

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Back to the original point -

The issue of your right to archive or backup your music has been tested many times as each new recording format made it's debut. By and large the individual right to archive or backup a copyrighted work is well established. However, people's understanding of what that actually means tends to be remarkably self-serving and all over the map. It is not unusual to find a DJ company that claims all seven of it's libraries are "backups." (Good grief !) Some of these DJs are just idiots, and others are idiotic cheapskates.

To date, the only DJs sued have been franchises merchandising their own custom compilations without obtaining the required compulsary licenses. KJs in commercial establishments have been targeted for Trademark infringement for the express purpose of forcing them to capitulate on the issue serial duplication. A trademark claim has no standing within a private event so, the karaoke fight remains in the commercial arena.

There really is no way to prevent serial copying by DJs except by better information. The DJ field is perennially repopulated with young talent both uneducated and undaunted with Copyright responsibility. That is further compounded by the differences that exist in the laws from one country to the next. Just cross the border into Canada and things are very different.

The best hope is to get the business minded ones to realize that obtaining the originals generally turns out to be a cheaper and more efficient way to manage music than serial copying. Those who serial duplicate tend to do so indiscriminately - wasting time and resources building and managing collections much larger than required. The value of the music collection to a DJ is also seriously declining as our clients now tend to have very large collections of their own and can often provide much of the non-mainstream content they might request at their event.

SoftJock Rick said:

And I disagree with YOUR interpretation Bob.

That's what they make judges and courts for...

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Yes... I wish you would read a few cases.

Again, I don't think Apple gives a hoot at the moment, because they are making tons of money. But if they decided they needed a new revenue stream, and decide to go after DJs and win the judgement, then things get interesting.

Let's say they settle the dispute by adding a commercial rights use specifically targeted at DJs. Instead of charging a buck for a tune, it now goes to 5 bucks for those extra rights. They've increased their revenue stream, and the DJs have decreased theirs.

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Commercial rights provisions already exist - DJs are not unique. They get treated like anyone else who wants to license a particular commercial use.

Mobile DJs doing private events are legally defined as NOT commercial use - therefore your plan can not be implemented by Apple or anyone else without first at least 2 Acts of Congress. Congress has already addressed this issue a number of times and declared that the provisions for privacy shall remain, with no intent to ever change them.

So, I do not agree with flaunting their EULA. They are one of, if not the most profitable companies on the planet. What do you think your odds will be, if you go up against them in court...?

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On this particular issue, their claim would likely be rejected for lack of actionable cause, and at the very least defeated with a motion to dismiss. Translation: I can win for a cost of about 3 postage stamps.

I don't think Apple gives a hoot at the moment, because they are making tons of money

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LOL. People who make a ton of money seldom miss an opportunity to make a pound or two more. The opportunity you are illustrating simply is there.

Proformance said:

Yes... I wish you would read a few cases.

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I'm not a lawyer Bob -- I hire them if I need them, and they can read all they like...

I personally just want to get paid for what I do, and I only license certain rights to software or music. If somebody needs additional rights above and beyond the standard EULA, I will charge them for it. I don't SELL songs or software -- I only license usage rights. You either agree to those rights or not.


As to the original point:

I get to see a lot of folk's music library listings, just by nature of my work. My DJ software can communicate with the Mothership, so to speak, if I require that.

I acquired a copy of somebodies drive years ago -- it contained about 160,000 songs -- I use it for testing, because there are lots of dupes, bad tags, etc. The one's that are being sold now, have even more. It's not just the kids using this, it's longtime "professional" DJs.

They'll buy one of these loaded drives off CL or eBay, and then duplicate them for their friends and/or employees. They're easy to spot because of the tag issues, and folder structure.

Funny story: Had a dude call me not too long ago, and he was having some problems with his library (500,000+ songs)! So for S&G, I asked him what he charged for gigs, and how many he did a year. Answer was 10-30 gigs at around $400-500 per. So, I asked if he purchased all his music through legal channels (we'll hold that debate for this exercise). Yup he said, got them off of iTunes. So let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt, and say he does 30 gigs a year @ $500. That equals $15,000 per year. But he apparently paid at least $500,000 for his music library, and must have spent at least 347 solid days downloading them (that's assuming 24x7 @ 1 minute per song). Let's say realistically you did 10 a day -- that's 50,000 days -- according to my calculator, that's about 136 years!

Again, according to my calculator, it would take roughly 33 years to get any ROI off that library that you started downloading in 1876.

Just saying, y'know... xf

SoftJock Rick said:

I personally just want to get paid for what I do, and I only license certain rights to software or music. If somebody needs additional rights above and beyond the standard EULA, I will charge them for it. I don't SELL songs or software -- I only license usage rights. You either agree to those rights or not.

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I think if you have been selling music to the public you have probably met the legal definition of "published" and for anyone purchasing your music the Copyright Act now supersedes your EULA on any issues that conflict with the law. Music has a longer legal history and so it has some treatments that are slightly different than software.

They'll buy one of these loaded drives off CL or eBay, and then duplicate them for their friends and/or employees.

Had a dude having some problems with his library 500,000+ songs.....

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I don't care.. because there aren't half a billion songs worth owning so the bulk of whatever files you were counting on that disc - don't represent any lost sales revenue. If you had the top 200 songs from each year of the rock and roll era that would be less than 12,000 songs. Let's multiply by 5 (crazy really) to include the entirety of 4 genres other than the mainstream. That's still only 60,000 songs. Just 1/10 of the worthless crap and duplicates that must be on that drive.

If you acquired 60,000 songs on greatest hits CDs (average 4 hits per disc current street price $0.75/disc via half.com) That's about 15,000 CDs at a cost of $11,250. If you've been a DJ for 15 years that's only $750 /yr.

But, I still have a problem with this math because I've been a DJ for 25 years and including duplicates and karaoke only acquired some 15,000 files. On average I'd say my working collection is really comprised of only 5,000 popular songs and I hit 90% of the requests I get. That's just 1/100 of what you describe as a huge a problem - which means only 1% of what is on that drive is of any meaningful value.

I'm not advocating piracy - just pointing out that it really doesn't amount to any competition for me, and probably doesn't amount to a hill of beans over-all because in the absence of these drives - none of those losers are likely to legitimately buy any music.

You can spend your days getting your panties in a bunch trying to control this, or thinking that it somehow controls you - or you can focus on your own best path and realize 99% of it will never affect you.